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  1. #141  
    Quote Originally Posted by treobk214
    "that's all her husband has been fighting for, per her stated beliefs to him. Look! I'm not a DNR prospect AT ALL. I'm an atheist and as long as I have two frontal brain cells to rub together stick plugs and tubes where you have to. This poor woman has no frontal lobes. She has no material to have self realization. She's only animated by the base of her spine and it's wrong for her parents to keep the body alive so they can have an animated doll that was her daughter.

    It's worse yet for the GOP to use this issue politically. "

    I hear you, da. you've made a key point there regarding the deteriorated status of terri's brain.
    it would make sense for us to further someone's life along in the hopes of rehabilitating certain parts of their mental capacities ( ie frontal lobes) in the future, but if these faculties no longer exist, what possible future could we ever hope to rehabilitate her into?
    I believe I now understand the situation a bit better now. without these frontal lobes, it is impossible to move forward, so bringing this to conclusion does seem more feasible now.
    Maybe we should stave retarted people to death too?
    I'm both super! ... and a doer!
  2. #142  
    Quote Originally Posted by treobk214
    "Took ya long enuff"

    - clairegrrl

    sorry claire. please accept my apologies, my friend.
    kisses
    Well behaved women rarely make history
  3.    #143  
    wow, bclancy are YOU attacking me too? wow, am I one HATED individual on this forum! take what I said and totally twist them around!
  4. #144  
    Quote Originally Posted by bclancy
    Maybe we should stave retarted people to death too?
    and bad spellers
    Well behaved women rarely make history
  5. #145  
    Well, my husband is of the mind that everyone should be required to obtain a license in order to breed. Obtaining said license would require an IQ test. "Stupid people should not be allowed to breed." (Husband's words-not mine.) If he had his way, we wouldn't have very many retarded people that we could starve to death.
  6. #146  
    Quote Originally Posted by treobk214
    wow, bclancy are YOU attacking me too? wow, am I one HATED individual on this forum! take what I said and totally twist them around!
    Just making ya think about what ya say, man!

    But the argument really is for the benefit of others: If we euthanize Terry,
    next we'll move onto other people that it is "humane" to kill: It's more humane to let a young couple who made a mistake to take the life of an unborn (who in this case, ironically, also cannot speak for his/herself, and
    never even gets a chance to make a "living will". I don't like the pattern that I'm seeing here, and I wanted to give you some food for thought.
    I'm both super! ... and a doer!
  7. #147  
    Quote Originally Posted by clairegrrl
    and bad spellers
    Yeah, you got me. (Ouch!)
    I'm both super! ... and a doer!
  8.    #148  
    "but the argument really is for the benefit of others: If we euthanize Terry,
    next we'll move onto other people that it is "humane" to kill:"


    well you do raise a good point there. when I was talking about missing frontal lobes, I was acknowledging the fact that living on nothing more than the brain stem is clearly no life which should rightfully be prolonged.
    never in that post did I say mentally handicapped individuals should be euthanized though. I think you perceived it that way when I mentioned ' limited faculties' or compromised mental capacities. I should clarify.
    I did not mean those who are retarded, but rather those who have absolutely no control over themselves mentally or physically.
  9. #149  
    Thanks for clarifying your position.
    I'm both super! ... and a doer!
  10.    #150  
    "Stupid people should not be allowed to breed." (Husband's words-not mine.) "

    well interesting idea. however the laws of genetics would never allow that to be a permanent solution to eliminating "stupid people".
    I believe hitler and other extremists had similar ideas in mind in order to breed "superior races" as it were back in the times.
    the reality is, even if you prevent "stupid people" from breeding, you would still have such people appearing in the gene pool, because of the variations in which chromosomes interact and express individual genes.

    quite a theory he's got there though.
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    #151  
    Quote Originally Posted by dansamy
    Well, my husband is of the mind that everyone should be required to obtain a license in order to breed. Obtaining said license would require an IQ test. "Stupid people should not be allowed to breed." (Husband's words-not mine.) If he had his way, we wouldn't have very many retarded people that we could starve to death.
    Based on what I've seen come through the Foster Care system, I'd have to agree. Although I don't think IQ's the right measure. There are some people out there totally incapable of raising a child
    Less than 400 posts to get my own little treo icon!
  12. #152  
    Quote Originally Posted by treobk214
    great! so our court system unanimously agrees that starving someone to death is the best way to put them down.

    fantastic! thanks for playing, everyone! ahhh.. america the beautiful!
    This is why is said you need to back off of your emotions. Show me the ruling that says "starving someone to death is the best way to put them down"
    Last edited by Insertion; 03/23/2005 at 09:17 AM. Reason: damn typo's!!!
    MaxiMunK.com The Forum That Asks, "Are You Not Entertained?"

    Remember: "Anyone that thinks the Treo should just work right out of the box, shouldn't own a Treo..."
  13. #153  
    Quote Originally Posted by treobk214
    "i have to admit that your crude humor brightened my spirits while catching up on this thread. Thanks for being yourself Joe! "

    well it appears I was wrong, joe. everyone finds it pretty funny - so it looks like that's my bad.
    I was expecting it from someone, no biggie
  14. #154  
    Quote Originally Posted by dansamy
    Well, my husband is of the mind that everyone should be required to obtain a license in order to breed. Obtaining said license would require an IQ test. "Stupid people should not be allowed to breed." (Husband's words-not mine.)
    Agreed 100% -- how do I subscribe to you husband's newsletter
  15. #155  
    Quote Originally Posted by tbhausen
    Do any of you "pro-starvation" folks want to see pictures or video of Terri in two days? A week? The day she finally dies? Visualize that, if you dare. Still comfortable with your position?

    This is too sad and depressing to contemplate further. Everyone knows where I stand and I can't articulate it any more clearly. I'm outta here.

    Todd/Indy
    Please, not another one of these "Pro-starvation" points. Where did anyone here say "Starvation, I'm all for that!!!"

    Back away from your talking points.

    And why should I visualize her in a week? What the Hell nonsense is that. Terri Schiavo is irrelevant to my life. Her one death has no more importance to me than anyone else I don't know. Her case however, should it have been affected by an unwarranted Congressional act, would make me uncomfortable.
    MaxiMunK.com The Forum That Asks, "Are You Not Entertained?"

    Remember: "Anyone that thinks the Treo should just work right out of the box, shouldn't own a Treo..."
  16. #156  
    There are some people out there totally incapable of raising a child
    Totally agree with you there. I'm just amazed at the amount of unbelievable idiocy that occurs in our world.
  17. #157  
    Quote Originally Posted by Joebar
    I was expecting it from someone, no biggie
    I laughed when I read it as well, probably because it was totally unexpected as I was reading the thread in the car
    Palm III > HS Visor > Treo 600 > Treo 650 > Treo 750 > Treo Pro > PrePlus GSM

    "95% of all software issues are due to USER ERROR."
  18. #158  
    Quote Originally Posted by treobk214
    "but the argument really is for the benefit of others: If we euthanize Terry,
    next we'll move onto other people that it is "humane" to kill:"


    well you do raise a good point there. when I was talking about missing frontal lobes, I was acknowledging the fact that living on nothing more than the brain stem is clearly no life which should rightfully be prolonged.
    never in that post did I say mentally handicapped individuals should be euthanized though. I think you perceived it that way when I mentioned ' limited faculties' or compromised mental capacities. I should clarify.
    I did not mean those who are retarded, but rather those who have absolutely no control over themselves mentally or physically.
    As I mentioned in my long post, my dad was in a very similar situation except that he was on life support. He reacted in a manner very similar to how Terry's family describes her. I'm not exactly sure what the "frontal lobes" do, but my dad (and how people who have observed Terry describe) was still alive and still a person. His circuits just weren't very well connected. I'm not sure there is any way to tell whether a person's IQ changes in such a case, but he still had and could understand what I was saying. I talked to him about an area where he wronged me as a child, and explained why it was wrong, but that I still forgave him, and I could see anguish on his face. A doctor making a hurried diagnosis would not notice these sorts of things. Even a psychologist would have trouble due his limited ability to communicate back. My point is, that someone in Terry's situation can be very much alive and thinking, but incapable of communicating their thoughts back to you because 99 44/100 % of the wiring to the outside has been fried.

    Terry's situation is similar to my fathers, except that Terry just needed food and water to stay alive. My father needed a respirator. Our society is letting the guardian deny food and water to Terry (and as a precedent, to
    others following in Terry's situation). If Terry were capable of swallowing, but otherwise in the same situation, and Michael, as guardian, did not feed her, would the situation be any different? Her life would still be as meaningful or as meaningless as it is now. ........................... If Michael starved her in this situation (because she told him she would not want to live like this), would he be wrong? Given that she is a devout Catholic, and the Church does not allow Terry to decide when to end her life, it is not in Terry's best interests to let her kill herself based on what she said while watching a movie. It's hard to know what Terry really would want, and without being in a similar situation, I'm not sure I can convince you that we shouldn't be basing a person's right to life on their brain activity. I feel that when we make decisions about another's life, we are playing God. It's a responsibility that in my case, I would have preferred leaving in God's hands.

    So in Terry's case, like my dad's, it's not a case of "no control over themselves mentally or physically", but more of a case of little to no manual control of their physical capabilities, but an ardent effort to connect with the outside world using whatever little is left. Mentally, I'm not sure we have a way of measuring. So I guess my point is that our science is not really good enough to safely define who should live, and thinking about this makes me uncomfortable. I hope we as a society can learn to respect God's definition of life, rather than our own.

    peace,
    --
    Bob
    I'm both super! ... and a doer!
  19. #159  
    Quote Originally Posted by bclancy
    ... I hope we as a society can learn to respect God's definition of life, rather than our own.
    sorry daThomas, I know we come from very different beliefs, and that not everyone in our society believes in God. Our legal system cannot be trumped by any given religion. So our legal system did the best that it could. It respected Micheal's right as guardian to make a descision that Terry would have made. I just wanted to acknowledge that you and others may have different beliefs than mine, and I didn't want you to feel that I've been ignoring what you said. (Yes, you may be blonde and beautiful, and I have no idea why Michael didn't "take the money and run".)
    I'm both super! ... and a doer!
  20. #160  
    According to some posts above, there is confusion about the state of Terry Schiavo. According to the doctors who examined her, she is in a Persistent Vegetative State, or PVS:

    "A persistent vegetative state (commonly, but incorrectly, referred to as "brain-death") sometimes follows a coma. Individuals in such a state have lost their thinking abilities and awareness of their surroundings, but retain non-cognitive function and normal sleep patterns. Even though those in a persistent vegetative state lose their higher brain functions, other key functions such as breathing and circulation remain relatively intact. Spontaneous movements may occur, and the eyes may open in response to external stimuli. They may even occasionally grimace, cry, or laugh. Although individuals in a persistent vegetative state may appear somewhat normal, they do not speak and they are unable to respond to commands." (http://www.ninds.nih.gov/disorders/coma/coma.htm)

    All courts dealing with her state have agreed with the view that she is in a PVS since more than a decade, with no chance of getting better. If this is the case (and I don't think all those courts and judges are that incompetent), she does NOT react or respond. She is unaware of her surroundings. She is, in fact, not Terry Schiavo any more, she does not have her personality (in fact, no personality at all), there is just her body (the vegetative reactions of that body) left. I guess we all agree that it is not the empty hull of the body that is the important part of a person, but the way she thinks, feels, acts. None of that is possible with a brain that is as severely damaged as Terry Schiavo's. Terry Schiavo as a person died long ago, it is just her empty body that remained. If you insist on attributing an IQ, that IQ would be 0 (not that I think IQ matters in this discussion).

    People in a PVS grimace and some movement may occur. This is very easily misinterpreted as reaction to a person present, certainly if the person present desperately hopes for any kind of reaction. It seems that these reactions can easily be exploited for political and other reasons, but, as it seems, the courts have acted according to the facts.

    I am aware of the fact that some people claim that Terry Schiavo reacts to commands. However, that seems very doubtful to me, maybe the result of a highly biased examination. The courts did not follow that view, and as mentioned, I don't think they are all totally incompetent.
    “Reality is that which, when you stop believing in it, doesn't go away.” (Philip K. ****)
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