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  1. #361  
    Hey joe...what happened with your car
    Well behaved women rarely make history
  2. #362  
    Quote Originally Posted by Joebar
    Please dont..... It'll be closed after like 10 posts because of flames anyway.

    It'll be: "less faith in god equals less morals" crew -vs- "god worshippers are a bunch of loonies" crew
    All too true. May draw lightning strikes too.
  3. #363  
    That's actually why I didn't start the thread. I'm trying to figure out to ask "what influenced us to believe what we believe rather than what we believe"
  4. #364  
    Quote Originally Posted by shopharim
    That's actually why I didn't start the thread. I'm trying to figure out (how) to ask "what influenced us to believe what we believe rather than what we believe"
    Great question. Much easier to answer honestly what one believes than why. Requires perspective to answer. If I cannot answer, then few can. I may have been fifty or sixty before, I could answer with candor, honesty, and confidence. I would trust few younger than that to answer in the same way. I would not want to be held accountable for how I might have answered at an earlier age. Not even sure how I will answer in ten more years.
  5. #365  
    I would hope people could be that introspective at nearly all ages (18+). I would expect to see an evolution of the belief system over time, but a well thought out one none-the-less. That evolution might include more radical, if not sporadic, leaps early on, but it should settle to incremental refinements over time (with the exception of those who experiience dramatic or traumatic events).
  6. #366  
    Quote Originally Posted by shopharim
    I would hope people could be that introspective at nearly all ages (18+). I would expect to see an evolution of the belief system over time, but a well thought out one none-the-less. That evolution might include more radical, if not sporadic, leaps early on, but it should settle to incremental refinements over time (with the exception of those who experiience dramatic or traumatic events).
    When I was 18 I believed what those around me believed. I thought of it as universal truth though it was often little more than prejudice, not to say bigotry. I had little to compare it to and no reason to question it or challenge it. I had not even thought of why I believed it but I was really confident that I had it right.

    At seventy I believe little of what I believed at 18 but finally have a pretty good idea of why I believe it.

    I remember one of my early lessons in belief systems. I was standing in the basement of the state capital with my customer, a state official from a small nearby mill town. The mill work force was about to be integated and they had sent a delegation to the capital to solicit political support for resisting it. A member of the delegation recognized my customer and came over to speak to us. The hate and filth that spilled out of man's mouth staggered me. I could not understand how he could say such things and not be embarrassed by them. On reflection I realized that in his entire life he might never have met anyone who would disagree with anything that he said. He simply could not imagine that we might disagee with him, much less be shocked by anything that he said. I began to understand how much of what I believed was a reflection of what I thought that my community believed and that it might have no more substance than what this poor man believed.

    Many years later I was reciting the Apostle's Creed when it dawned on me that I really did not believe any of it much beyond Credo in unum Deum. I hoped for a lot of it, like "the resurrection of the body," but that was different from believing in it. I realized that I no longer believed much of the common wisdom of my community. Many of the words taught me in catechism class by the little nuns of blessed memory stood up to scrutiny but they had taken on a completely different meaning than they had when I first learned them.

    I now have a new Credo, personal, derived from my life experience. While I think that many people might identify with it, the authorities would consider it heretical and some of my friends and family would think it scandalous. It is certainly different from what I believed at 18 but I understand why I believe it. It is a much better guide for living my life than what I believed at 18. It is certainly more than "incremental refinement" of what I believed at 18.
  7. #367  
    I'm with you, whmurray. A frustration that I have is that much of what we believe is a result of rote instruction, rathern than reasoned conclusions.

    Surely, there are those who find my conclusions unreasonable. Perhaps, my beliefs would also qualify as heretical, and scandalous to some. However, I am clear on why I believe what I believe. AND, I am willing to effect incremental or monumental changes when I grasp information that undermines what I currently believe.

    I am endeavoring to pass on to my children the ability to evaluate what they believe and why. I suspect that they will reach many of the same conclusions that I have. However, I am more interested in teaching them to think than to adopt my stance. If they learn to think, they will either reach the same conclusions I have, OR they will be able to reason with me why they have arrived somewhere different (and potentially persuade me to join them).

    As such, I think that an 18 year old should stand just as firmly on their current beliefs as a 70 year old does, even though there is a high probability that they will look back on the 18-year-old view from 70 and laugh. Why? Because, I think they should both be skilled at critical thinking so as to make the necessary adjustments as better information is ascertained (whether the adjustments be incremental or monumental).

    Hey! I suppose the new thread has its start.
  8. #368  
    Oh yeah... regarding a vengeful god:

    Some look at that passage and see vengence. Others see mercy. It's worthwhile to read more of the statement about having no other gods:

    Exodus 20:5-6
    "...for I the LORD thy God [am] a jealous God , visiting the iniquity of the fathers upon the children unto the third and fourth [generation] of them that hate me; and shewing mercy unto thousands of them that love me, and keep my commandments."

    There are repercussions of all our actions which effect not only ourselves but also those around us AND those that come after us. However, the effects of our "wrong-doing" are cut short while our well-doing benefits others perpetually.
    Last edited by shopharim; 05/18/2005 at 07:56 AM.
  9. NRG
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    #369  
    These folks just don't quit!! Goodness!!

    http://www.heraldtribune.com/apps/pb.../APN/506161284



    Bush wants more information on Schiavo's collapse; call to 911


    The Associated Press
    TALLAHASSEE, Fla. -- Gov. Jeb Bush said Thursday he might ask a state attorney to investigate allegations that Terri Schiavo's husband waited more than an hour to call 911 after her 1990 collapse.

    Terri Schiavo's parents, Bob and Mary Schindler, have previously said their son-in-law waited more than an hour to make the call. An autopsy report released Wednesday didn't address the allegation.

    "There's some doubt about when she did collapse and how long it took ... for the 911 call to be made," Bush said. "Which I think is worthy of some investigation. I don't know what form it would take."

    Bush said he might ask Bernie McCabe, state attorney for Pinellas-Pasco, to look into the issue, but that would have to wait until McCabe returned from vacation.
  10. #370  
    I am all for investigating to make sure there wasnt a crime committed (as I am sure most others would be as well.)

    It just seems odd that it 'looks' so partisan.
  11. NRG
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    #371  
    Quote Originally Posted by t2gungho
    I am all for investigating to make sure there wasnt a crime committed (as I am sure most others would be as well.)

    It just seems odd that it 'looks' so partisan.
    I think it is rather late in the game to be studying 911 calls. The reason they are doing this is because they were proved wrong on the autopsy that came out and they need a villian. It is pandering pure and simple. Why doesn't Jeb take special interest in other PVS patients?
  12. #372  
    Quote Originally Posted by NRG
    I think it is rather late in the game to be studying 911 calls.
    I don't think its ever too late to know the truth . If there is a legitimate case, then they can bring an indictment. (I don't think there is but I havent seen what the evidence is to suggest there is one.)

    I havent heard the fact that he didnt make the 911 call for over an hour but who knows.
  13. #373  
    My take on the case:

    Her husband should have relinquished his "owning" or control over his wife to the parents and everything would have been fine. They're getting a bad return on their investment, think of all the money sunk into diapers, schooling, orthodonics, etc....Sheesh, with all the media hype, the parents could have held a yearly "Save Terry!" telethon and all of her expenses would have been paid for until the year 3000.

    Didn't those danged Nazis implement eugenics programs? If the state of FL pulls the same stuff by assisting suicide, than I don't see much of a difference.
  14. #374  
    Burnout: Assuming that Terry did not want to be kept alive in that condition (and there seem to a lot of testimony and evidence to indicate that there was) does that change your mind at all on whT
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  15. #375  
    does that change your mind at all on whether the husband should have turned control of her to her parents?

    The autopsy said that she had 1/2 her brain and she was blind and was never coming back. Are you ok living like that?

    Im not flaming but just asking questions so I can understand what you wrote.
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  16. #376  
    Quote Originally Posted by t2gungho
    Burnout: Assuming that Terry did not want to be kept alive in that condition (and there seem to a lot of testimony and evidence to indicate that there was) does that change your mind at all on whT
    No. Her parents wanted to keep her alive and could have easily afforded her care, so it does not change my opinion.

    If she put her wishes in writing, rather than just her husband's hearsay, then I would not be quite as offended with her state sanctioned murder.
  17. #377  
    Sorry-Im posting this from my treo...

    You said "Her parents wanted to keep her alive and could have easily afforded her care, so it does not change my opinion."

    Why is the money an issue? No one made the argument that Terry should be allowed to die because they couldn't afford to take care of her? (I think her part of the lawsuit for malpractice was paying for her care.)

    You also said "If she put her wishes in writing, rather than just her husband's hearsay, then I would not be quite as offended with her state sanctioned murder."

    But isn't that the point...she didn't put it in writing. How would we ever know for sure what she wanted? (that really is the key though...what TERRY wanted...not the parents or her husband).

    BTW-you mentioned the state sanctioned murder phrase...are you against the death penalty as well?
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  18. #378  
    "But isn't that the point...she didn't put it in writing. How would we ever know for sure what she wanted? (that really is the key though...what TERRY wanted...not the parents or her husband)."

    We'll never know now since she was killed. Why not let her live, she wouldn't know the difference right? Her parents wanted her alive. What is wrong with satisfying their wishes?

    "BTW-you mentioned the state sanctioned murder phrase...are you against the death penalty as well?"

    The death penalty offers little deference to stop potential criminals, so I only partially agree with it.

    People guilty of treason should be shot in the head. It's in the constitution.
  19. #379  
    "We'll never know now since she was killed."

    We would never know if she were kept alive either...remember, she was not going to be coming back :-(

    "Why not let her live, she wouldn't know the difference right?"

    Is that what you would have wanted? (Imagine that existence and then throw in the fact that her parents very likely could have died before she did.) Talk about lonely...

    Plus..think about that line of reasoning...if you don't know about something...then its ok to do it to someone?

    "Her parents wanted her alive. What is wrong with satisfying their wishes?"

    Nothing is wrong with it per se, however more than one court looked at the evidence and concluded that Terry did not want to be kept alive in a PVS. Its what Terry wanted...the parents (in large part) were being selfish (I am not blaming them...its hard to goodbye.)

    "The death penalty offers little deference to stop potential criminals, so I only partially agree with it."

    So in what kind of cases do you agree with it being used?

    "People guilty of treason should be shot in the head. It's in the constitution."

    ...be shot in the head? I don't think that exact phrase is in there? ;-)

    BTW-treason is extremly hard to prove...you need witnesses to collaborate the crime.
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  20. #380  
    "We would never know if she were kept alive either...remember, she was not going to be coming back :-("

    Maybe. Walt Disney's head is frozen because he thought there might be a chance of coming back. You never know what kind of advances in science are in store for us down the road.

    "Is that what you would have wanted? (Imagine that existence and then throw in the fact that her parents very likely could have died before she did.) Talk about lonely..."

    I wouldn't know one way from the other if I was in that state, so the question is moot.

    "Its what Terry wanted"

    ... according to her husband.

    "So in what kind of cases do you agree with it being used?" "...be shot in the head? I don't think that exact phrase is in there? ;-)"

    The constitution is explicit in how to deal with traitors. Read the article I posted in the Bush thread. Franklin, Rosen, and Weismann should be hung. I trust the FBI's surveillance of these rats. Easy enough to prove in this situation.

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