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  1. #141  
    Things I know for sure...

    We're the best at American Football.
    We're the best at Baseball.
    We're the best at Basketball, oops no we're not.
    We would win at an eating contest.
    We may have more guns per capita, but not sure.
    We have the best barbeque in the world.
    We (arguably) have the best looking women in the world (yes, I've been to Europe).
    We have more colleges per capita? (not verified)
    Don't we have lower taxes than many nations?

    Seriously, the number one thing has more to do overall. We have a lot of freedom to start our own businesses and to succeed on our own. There is a long list of successful entrepreneurs from the US.

    Sidenote: I've wondered considering how awful the insurgency is in Iraq, what would it be like if another nation or group of nations tried a land invasion of the US? I work in rural Florida, and I can tell you every Bubba down here has at least two guns. Maybe Red Dawn, Part 2?

    Quote Originally Posted by clulup
    So again, go ahead, show the positive facts, which are the fields where the US are No. 1?
  2. #142  
    Quote Originally Posted by clulup
    No, I don't see it that way. The post said that the US are not No. 1 in a long list of topics. I think that was just a list of facts. Why do you say those facts are divisive? Is it against your religion to say the US are not No. 1?
    Should I speak more slowly for you so you can understand?

    Take a moment to review my posts. At no point in time have I indicated America is No. 1 in anything. That is not my issue - my issue is the posting of information for the express purpose of being divisive. I have not, and will not disagree with any of the information indicated in the initial post from Nudist. What I disagree with is the manner in which it is posted - it was not posted to be educational, informative or otherwise non-confrontationally disseminated. It was posted, just as each of the other posts I have read from Nudist has been - to provoke. And before you say it, not it's not to provoke thought or meaningful discussion, but rather to provoke negative responses.

    You see, I have little patience for people who complain without giving thought to and including solutions – I expect better. Hell, my kids do a better job of presenting their case than that!

    Certainly you can agree there are better ways to get one's point across?
  3. #143  
    Quote Originally Posted by clulup
    When knowing Americans are about five times as likely to kill their fellow citizens, maybe we should be glad they have no intention of coming to Europe, even if it is only because they don't know about life here?
    Maybe so. But while we're discussing facts, I'll have you know that there are families of the Holocaust victims that would agree that the Swiss are 5,000,000 dead persons more likely to collaborate with genocide if it fills their banks with cash and saves their own sorry asses. The following article talks all about how Switzerland sold all of Europe out to be Hitler's best banker buddy. How it knew of the genocide going on in Germany's borders and, not only turned fleeing Jews away from their border, but also turned over those who got through knowing full well what would happen to them. (Neutrality, huh?) And how it would not turn over Nazi plunder (a lot of which was from victims BTW) for years after the war.

    http://www.spiritone.com/~gdy52150/goldp8.html

    Face it, Switzerland has never stuck it's neck out for anyone and is a country of collaborators. They helped the Nazis for free spoils of war and would still to this day be proudly hoisting the Nazi flag had Gemany won. They were an Axis country in WWII that hid behind their "neutrality" like a drunken ambassador involved in a child molestation case claiming diplomatic immunity.

    The citizens of the United States are 5 times more likely to willingly die fighting another government to protect human rights while the Swiss are 5 times more likely to turn you over to someone wanting to throw you into a gas chamber for some cash rewards and the avoidance of any type of personal inconvenience. But they wouldn't be their "fellow citizens" being murdered, so it still fits your stat Clu. That's why we won't visit Switzerland.

    As for number #1's, I would say that Switzerland's government is the #1 surviving regime that still bears responsibility for the The Holocaust. (But don't take this as a personal attack against your country because these are all facts just like yours about the US - and I did just put a bunch of happy faces on the screen like you did.)
    ROOTING for WebOS makes me more sympathetic to Cubs fans.
  4.    #144  
    Quote Originally Posted by Advance The Man
    We have more colleges per capita? (not verified)
    at least we are for sure no. 1 in this:

    -more people in prison per capita than ANY other nation on the planet.
  5. #145  
    Quote Originally Posted by nudist
    at least we are for sure no. 1 in this:

    -more people in prison per capita than ANY other nation on the planet.
    woo hoo....we're #1, we're#1...
  6. #146  
    Apologies if this has been linked to before: http://www.nationmaster.com/country/us/Top-Rankings
  7. #147  
    Quote Originally Posted by Bob-C
    Maybe so. But while we're discussing facts, I'll have you know that there are families of the Holocaust victims that would agree that the Swiss are 5,000,000 dead persons more likely to collaborate with genocide if it fills their banks with cash and saves their own sorry asses. The following article talks all about how Switzerland sold all of Europe out to be Hitler's best banker buddy. How it knew of the genocide going on in Germany's borders and, not only turned fleeing Jews away from their border, but also turned over those who got through knowing full well what would happen to them. (Neutrality, huh?) And how it would not turn over Nazi plunder (a lot of which was from victims BTW) for years after the war.

    http://www.spiritone.com/~gdy52150/goldp8.html

    Face it, Switzerland has never stuck it's neck out for anyone and is a country of collaborators. They helped the Nazis for free spoils of war and would still to this day be proudly hoisting the Nazi flag had Gemany won. They were an Axis country in WWII that hid behind their "neutrality" like a drunken ambassador involved in a child molestation case claiming diplomatic immunity.

    The citizens of the United States are 5 times more likely to willingly die fighting another government to protect human rights while the Swiss are 5 times more likely to turn you over to someone wanting to throw you into a gas chamber for some cash rewards and the avoidance of any type of personal inconvenience. But they wouldn't be their "fellow citizens" being murdered, so it still fits your stat Clu. That's why we won't visit Switzerland.

    As for number #1's, I would say that Switzerland's government is the #1 surviving regime that still bears responsibility for the The Holocaust. (But don't take this as a personal attack against your country because these are all facts just like yours about the US - and I did just put a bunch of happy faces on the screen like you did.)
    While the article you mention contains some gross mistakes ("present form of Swiss government in approving three cantons" - Three cantons? ), there is also merit in it. It is true that during World War II the Swiss borders were officially closed and sometimes refugees (not only Jews) were turned back. It is also true that trade and banking went on also with the surrounding nations, even when all of them were under control of Nazi Germany. Those are certainly not things to be proud about, and I would be the last to glorify the Swiss position during WWII.

    However, one also has to see them in the light of the situation Switzerland was faced with: it was surrounded by a 20 or 50 times larger enemy and tried to keep war away from the country. On one hand it is true that Switzerland was vulnerable to blackmailing by the Third Reich which totally surrounded it, but on the other hand there is also no doubt that Switzerland was willing to fight back an attack by Germany or their allies in Austria and Italy as long as possible. The overwhelming majority of the Swiss had absolutely no sympathy for Hitler and totally rejected the Nazi philosophies.

    While it is true that some refugees were turned back, it is also true that large numbers of refugees found a safe place in the middle of the Third Reich and survived the war thanks to Switzerland. No other nation on continental Europe can claim that.

    It is not true that the Swiss knew exactely what happened to the refugees they turned back, at least not until very late in the war. As the article you quoted states "Allen Dulles labeled [reports of Jews being sent to concentration camps] as hysterical Jewish propaganda". The role of Allen Dulles is interesting by the way. During most of WWII, he was the chief spy of the US, headquartered in Bern, Switzerland. Switzerland was an ideal place for him to organise the resistance in the countries occupied by the Nazis and to gather intelligence about the German activities. The Swiss were fully aware of Dulles activities, and while officially not taking notice, inofficially there were numerous contacts and support for him. For instance, when Dulles secretly negotiated the surrender of the German troops in Italy, he used Swiss agents to make the first contacts with the Germans.

    So yes, the Swiss did turn back refugees, and Nazi Germany did make use of Swiss banks, but the Swiss position also saved refugees and made the situation for the Nazis more difficult by blocking the main routes of transport through Europe (which lead through Switzerland). It was a time of war, and it is easy to question the decisions out of the present day situation.

    I guess you should also not overestimate the selflessness and altruism of the US during WWII. The fact that they entered the war was mostly if not totally triggered by Pearl Harbour and the realisation of the fact that if they did not start fighting the war in Europe, the war would come to the US, too.

    As mentioned, the role of Switzerland was far from totally heroic. But on the other hand, we also never imported thousands or millions of slaves from Africa to work on our fields, we never had a civil war to keep the right to have slaves, and we did not cause the death of thousands or millions of native Americans while taking their land. We all have our share of guilt to carry.
    “Reality is that which, when you stop believing in it, doesn't go away.” (Philip K. ****)
  8. #148  
    Oh, we're awful, we're not worthy, we should give our country to Europe that will fix everything.

    Quote Originally Posted by nudist
    at least we are for sure no. 1 in this:

    -more people in prison per capita than ANY other nation on the planet.
  9. #149  
    Quote Originally Posted by Bob-C
    ...not only turned fleeing Jews away from their border, but also turned over those who got through knowing full well what would happen to them. (Neutrality, huh?) And how it would not turn over Nazi plunder ...
    I wish this thread not turned into a U.S. v. Switzerland soccer match. Nevertheless, Bob-C, although your case against Switzerland is truthful and documented (one example), it is also important to point out the tragedy of the S.S. St. Louis (a.k.a. "Voyage of the St. Louis") in which Cuba and the U.S. have turned their backs to Jewish refugee-passengers on that ship, knowing fair-well that they will have to return to Europe and to the hands of the nazis (secone example). Quite unfortunately, no one is perfect.
    I have never let my schooling interfere with my education.
    -Mark Twain
  10. #150  
    Quote Originally Posted by KRamsauer
    Apologies if this has been linked to before: http://www.nationmaster.com/country/us/Top-Rankings
    Now that's one big list!
  11. #151  
    Quote Originally Posted by treo2die4
    Now that's one big list!
    Yep. It's a pretty cool site, overall.
  12. #152  
  13. #153  
    Quote Originally Posted by Joebar
    You crack me up!
  14. #154  
    Quote Originally Posted by m00se
    I wish this thread not turned into a U.S. v. Switzerland soccer match. Nevertheless, Bob-C, although your case against Switzerland is truthful and documented (one example), it is also important to point out the tragedy of the S.S. St. Louis (a.k.a. "Voyage of the St. Louis") in which Cuba and the U.S. have turned their backs to Jewish refugee-passengers on that ship, knowing fair-well that they will have to return to Europe and to the hands of the nazis (secone example). Quite unfortunately, no one is perfect.
    I agree with you. For instance, Swiss banks handled the dormant accounts of possible holocaust victims in a bad way. They should have acted faster, so it is fair that in the end they paid US$1.25 billion to Jewish organisations in addition to the money found in the dormant accounts (which was 20 times less than the US$1.25 billion paid). The agreement with the Jewish organisations was reached about seven years ago.

    It did strike many as odd though that Israel, which surely cannot be accused of being anti-semitic, and rightfully pointed out that the dormant accounts in Switzerland are a problem, failed to give back the property of holocaust victims from dormant accounts in their possession for more than 60 years, despite all the publicity dormant accounts had had for many years...
    Last edited by clulup; 03/09/2005 at 06:49 AM.
    “Reality is that which, when you stop believing in it, doesn't go away.” (Philip K. ****)
  15.    #155  
    Quote Originally Posted by Joebar
    Up yours!
  16. #156  
    Quote Originally Posted by KRamsauer
    Apologies if this has been linked to before: http://www.nationmaster.com/country/us/Top-Rankings
    Long list, pitty most of them are negative things (crime, debt, decease etc)

    This list struck me as ironic too:
    Military - WMD - Biological (per $ GDP)
    Military - WMD - Biological (per capita)
    Military - WMD - Chemical (per $ GDP)
    Military - WMD - Chemical (per capita)
    Military - WMD - Missile (per $ GDP)
    Military - WMD - Missile (per capita)
    Military - WMD - Nuclear (per $ GDP)
    Military - WMD - Nuclear (per capita)
    Military - WMD - Overview (per $ GDP)
    Military - WMD - Overview (per capita)

    That would give say china carte blance to invade the US in a legal way (i.e. using the same logic Bush used) kinda scary don't you think?
    <IMG WIDTH="200" HEIGHT="50" SRC=http://www.visorcentral.com/images/visorcentral.gif> (ex)VisorCentral Discussion Moderator
    Do files get embarrassed when they get unzipped?
  17.    #157  
    Quote Originally Posted by ToolkiT
    That would give say china carte blance to invade the US in a legal way (i.e. using the same logic Bush used) kinda scary don't you think?
    I think when our country invades another, using reasons such as
    WMDs,
    "WMD program related activities",
    regime change because the leader is "a very bad person";

    condones torture to get information on WMDs that don't exist,

    and kills more innocent civilians in that effort than were killed in 9-11,

    it gives other nations license to to the same.

    We sure don't hold the high moral ground in any of this!

    Before the "devisiveness" attacks start again, I want to say clearly:
    I love my country, but I am ashamed of the actions this administration has taken and the lies it has told.

    The solution I offer is in my avatar!
  18. #158  
    Nudist, you offer only opinions not facts.
  19. #159  
    Quote Originally Posted by Advance The Man
    Nudist, you offer only opinions not facts.
    So if I would mention top rankings (when compared to other developed countries) in homicide, rape, assault, traffic death, teenage pregnancy, abortion, divorce, health costs (the latter combined with high infant mortality and low life expectancy), would you take that as an opinion or as a fact?
    “Reality is that which, when you stop believing in it, doesn't go away.” (Philip K. ****)
  20. #160  
    Quote Originally Posted by clulup
    So if I would mention top rankings (when compared to other developed countries) in homicide, rape, assault, traffic death, teenage pregnancy, abortion, divorce, health costs (the latter combined with high infant mortality and low life expectancy), would you take that as an opinion or as a fact?
    I would take it as fact. But, to throw out political topics about wmd's (most everyone in the world thought Saddam had them), killing innocent civilians (majority are being killed by terrorists), condones torture, etc. This is not fact it is his opinion.

    Please post a link regarding your quote...
    Quote Originally Posted by clulup
    high infant mortality and low life expectancy
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