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  1.    #161  
    Quote Originally Posted by Woof
    You seriously bleach your hair every spring? How old are you?
    As old as I feel! And since I bike 60 miles a week, I look damn good!
  2. #162  
    Quote Originally Posted by Bouncer
    So you don't belive in the Bill of Rights?
    Hmm dont recall saying that. I said the aclu is not the savior of all things american. They are not. They pick and choose per their agenda.
    “There are four boxes to be used in defense of liberty: soap, ballot, jury, and ammo. Please use in that order.”
    — Ed Howdershelt
    "A government big enough to give you everything you want, is big enough to take away everything you have."- Thomas Jefferson
  3. #163  
    Quote Originally Posted by daThomas
    As old as I feel! And since I bike 60 miles a week, I look damn good!
    LOL. Impressive, but hey I drive at least that far every day.
    “There are four boxes to be used in defense of liberty: soap, ballot, jury, and ammo. Please use in that order.”
    — Ed Howdershelt
    "A government big enough to give you everything you want, is big enough to take away everything you have."- Thomas Jefferson
  4. #164  
    Quote Originally Posted by daThomas
    In retrospect I am actually glad I was exposed to the rradicals for both sides in College. It helped me sharpen my radar for people who are passionate about something for alterior motives (often ego like Churchill or Ann Coulter) and those that are paasionate about things with a strong logical base behind it.

    But I don't really have an opinion on tenure. It means different things at different Institutions right?
    Yes, perhaps. I know in the U of California system, tenureship was implemented as a way to ensure teachers could have "acedemic freedom," without fear of retribution. Like a lot of things, it seems a good idea. But I'm not so sure that giving someone a lifetime pass to be a loose cannon is such a good thing. Academic freedom is one thing, but lunacy is another.

    I don't know any other occupation that has a lifetime tenureship, other than judges. But even judges can be impeached.

    Also, i was reading over this thread and noticed you mentioned that the U of Colorado prez was stepping down. Just from an outsider looking in, I think that has more to do with the football scandals than Ward Churchill. Perhaps the Churchill incident may have been the final straw though.
    MaxiMunK.com The Forum That Asks, "Are You Not Entertained?"

    Remember: "Anyone that thinks the Treo should just work right out of the box, shouldn't own a Treo..."
  5. #165  
    I thought the same thing, as I was keeping up with the football scandal. But, an article yesterday actually referred to the hippie as being the cause. The football incidents couldn't of helped.

    Quote Originally Posted by Insertion
    Also, i was reading over this thread and noticed you mentioned that the U of Colorado prez was stepping down. Just from an outsider looking in, I think that has more to do with the football scandals than Ward Churchill. Perhaps the Churchill incident may have been the final straw though.
  6. #166  
    Quote Originally Posted by daThomas
    ...I look damn good!
    Hmmmm
    Well behaved women rarely make history
  7. #167  
    Quote Originally Posted by Insertion
    Also, i was reading over this thread and noticed you mentioned that the U of Colorado prez was stepping down. Just from an outsider looking in, I think that has more to do with the football scandals than Ward Churchill. Perhaps the Churchill incident may have been the final straw though.
    It's a combination of things, but that's what happens when you let an "educator" be university president instead of a business person.
    Well behaved women rarely make history
  8. santas's Avatar
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    #168  
    Too many comments to respond to, so I'll just share my opinions on this topic:

    1) Card carrying member of the ACLU and proud of it. Do I wish they'd choose better cases sometimes? Yes. Am I glad they're there? Yes.

    2) Ward is out there. I don't agree with a lot of what he said. But to start an inquiry because he said something un-popular? That's a witch hunt. That's Macarthy-ism. Face it. If someone looked closely into your work and background, would they not find some sort of transgression that could be exploited. To choose the people to look into based on their opinions is beyond dangerous.
    Less than 400 posts to get my own little treo icon!
  9. #169  
    They might find some dirt on me out late with friends drinking years ago, but they won't find me comparing innocent people of all religions and all races to 'little eichmans' or say that our soldiers aren't heroes, but cowards - and that the terrorists that flew the planes were not cowards.

    However, at what point do you draw the line on someone who is impacting the wallet of a university. If he were sensible, he would just cool it for a bit for the sake of his university that pays him. He got his essay out, his 'talking points', he's got his 15 minutes of fame and he's now also known as an 'artist'. He unfortunately appears to be a complete a## and should be fired based on not what he has said, but the amount of negative attention he brings to his university. Like it or not universities compete with each other, and he is dragging U of Colo through the mud.

    Quote Originally Posted by santa
    Too many comments to respond to, so I'll just share my opinions on this topic:

    1) Card carrying member of the ACLU and proud of it. Do I wish they'd choose better cases sometimes? Yes. Am I glad they're there? Yes.

    2) Ward is out there. I don't agree with a lot of what he said. But to start an inquiry because he said something un-popular? That's a witch hunt. That's Macarthy-ism. Face it. If someone looked closely into your work and background, would they not find some sort of transgression that could be exploited. To choose the people to look into based on their opinions is beyond dangerous.
  10. santas's Avatar
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    #170  
    Quote Originally Posted by Advance The Man
    They might find some dirt on me out late with friends drinking years ago, but they won't find me comparing innocent people of all religions and all races to 'little eichmans' or say that our soldiers aren't heroes, but cowards - and that the terrorists that flew the planes were not cowards.
    I don't dissagree what you're saying, and at least in the short term it probably would be better for CU if Ward went away. But this is what worries me about it:

    What if at some point my opinions become too far away from the "norm", and I voice them? Will I lose my job? Will I get investigated or put into jail?

    That's my fear. That's why I support the ACLU. That's why I think we need to be very careful about what we do with people like Ward.
    Less than 400 posts to get my own little treo icon!
  11. #171  
    There is more underneath the Warch Churchill saga than his "artwork" and Lil' Eichmann comments. There's disputing his credentials and the fact that he has claimed for years of his Indian (errr...Native American) heritage even though there has yet to be one ounce of proof that he has any Native American blood in him at all.
    MaxiMunK.com The Forum That Asks, "Are You Not Entertained?"

    Remember: "Anyone that thinks the Treo should just work right out of the box, shouldn't own a Treo..."
  12.    #172  
  13. #173  
    DA!
    You are still around! I was hoping you'd come over to the "Why are Democrats getting stomped" thread and post a few thoughts.
  14. #174  
    To address an issue in some earlier posts that I don't think got answered:

    Ward Churchill: Prof. at a state university, thus a public employee, protected (though not absolutely) by the First Amendment.

    Larry Summers: Prez. of a private university, thus a private employee.

    The First Amendment does not restrict private employers from firing employees for speech. (State constitutions and state laws might, and some federal statutes, but not the U.S. Constitution, which limits state action, not private action.) What SHOULD limit that cesspit Harvard is some grasp, however tenuous, of the philosophical value of freedom of inquiry. Good luck waiting for that.
  15. #175  
    Quote Originally Posted by Mr. Fed
    ...Good luck waiting for that.
    Keep waiting

    Well behaved women rarely make history
  16.    #176  
    And now back to the subject of the thread:

    "ACLU Settles Case On Behalf Of Christian Valedictorian

    May 11, 2004 - Press Release

    DETROIT – The American Civil Liberties Union of Michigan announced today that an out-of-court settlement has been reached between the 2001 Stevenson High School valedictorian and the Utica Community Schools over the censorship of her entry for the school’s 2001 yearbook. The student’s entry had been deleted from the yearbook because it contained a passage from the Bible. >

    “While it is true that schools may not constitutionally promote religion, they also must be very careful not to suppress the private religious expression of their students,” said Michael J. Steinberg, ACLU of Michigan Legal Director, who represented Abbey Moler, the Sterling Heights student. “This was a case where a high school had created a forum for student expression, yet censored a student’s speech because it was religious in nature."

    Ms. Moler was valedictorian of Stevenson High School’s class of 2001. She and a handful of other high achieving graduates were profiled in a section of the yearbook that listed the students’ activities and the colleges they planned to attend. In addition each student was invited to share some words of wisdom or advice to pass on to the rest of the school.

    In previous years, students’ entries in the “wants to pass on” section ranged from serious advice to humorous tidbits. For example, one student wrote, “I’ll never grow old, I’ll never die, and I’ll always eat oatmeal.” Another student’s entry was simply, “One word: Plastics.”

    Ms. Moler, a devout Christian, submitted a bible verse that she found meaningful. It stated:



    I would like to share a favorite verse that shapes my life and guides me from day to day:

    “‘For I know the plans I have for you,’ declares the Lord, ‘plans to prosper you and not to harm you, plans to give you hope and a future.’” Jeremiah 29:11 (New International Bible).



    When the yearbook was published, Ms. Moler’s entry had been omitted. When she and her parents complained, they were told that the school could not publish the entry because it was religious.

    "My personal relationship with Jesus Christ is the foundation of who I am, and the publication of my verse is critical in preserving student expression and First Amendment rights,” said Ms. Moler, who is studying to become a teacher. “I received a wonderful education from the Utica Community Schools and now that I’m entering the teaching profession, I wanted to do my part in maintaining the excellence of public education.”

    The ACLU and the school district were able to negotiate a settlement without the need to file a lawsuit. The terms of the settlement include the following:
    * The district will place a sticker with Abbey’s original entry in the copies of the 2001 yearbook on file with the school;

    * The district has instructed the Stevenson High School yearbook staff not to censor entries in the “Wants to Pass On” section solely because they contain religious or political speech that others might find offensive;

    * The district recently provided and will continue to provide in-service training and advice to school staff on free speech and religious freedom issues that arise in schools;

    * The district will write a letter of regret to Abbey about the failure to include her entry in the yearbook."
  17. #177  
    One wonders what made the school so gun shy in the first place? Do you think maybe the dozens of other suits the ACLU has filed caused this decision? Isn't the yearbook considered a school publication? Well, I guess they are privately funded, but with the sanction of the school. No school approval, no year book. I can certainly understand the school's reluctance.

    And where is the ACLU in supporting the rights of citizens to lawfully assemble and assist law enforcement in Arizona?

    DA, I'm still looking forward to your comments on why the Democrats are losing so badly all over the nation.
  18.    #178  
    Quote Originally Posted by 1911sforever
    One wonders what made the school so gun shy in the first place? Do you think maybe the dozens of other suits the ACLU has filed caused this decision? Isn't the yearbook considered a school publication? Well, I guess they are privately funded, but with the sanction of the school. No school approval, no year book. I can certainly understand the school's reluctance.

    And where is the ACLU in supporting the rights of citizens to lawfully assemble and assist law enforcement in Arizona?

    DA, I'm still looking forward to your comments on why the Democrats are losing so badly all over the nation.
    I agree with you that it's the school admins fault due to their lack of understanding of these rights and seperation issues. The ACLU knows this thus why this was never litigated but rather the ACLU took an advisory position for the school. If the school was unsure, all they had to do was pick up the phone and call their local chapter for their opinion.

    I don't think vigilantism is something the ACLU considers free speech.

    On the last point, you will be waiting a long time.
  19. #179  
    So, in your world the ACLU is the authority on what a school should or should not be allowed to do. That's a powerful statement.

    Vigilantism, or volunteerism? Are you against neighborhood watch programs, too? Is the ACLU going to go after McGruff the Crime Dog when he tries to take a bite out of crime? Free speech and assembly for the Nazis in Skokie, but citizens protesting their government's inaction in securing our border deserves the highest scrutiny?

    I'm not in the least surprised that you won't comment on the continuing Democrat meltdown. You shouldn't be surprised if I continue to invite you over there, to illustrate your lack of the courage of the convictions you proclaim, if nothing else.
    Last edited by 1911sforever; 04/01/2005 at 04:07 PM.
  20.    #180  
    Quote Originally Posted by 1911sforever
    So, in your world the ACLU is the authority on what a school should or should not be allowed to do. That's a powerful statement.

    Vigilantism, or volunteerism? Are you against neighborhood watch programs, too? Is the ACLU going to go after Barney the Crime Dog when he tries to take a bite out of crime?

    I'm not in the least surprised that you won't comment on the continuing Democrat meltdown. You shouldn't be surprised if I continue to invite you over there, to illustrate your lack of the courage of the convictions you proclaim, if nothing else.
    Calm down, it's Fri. The ACLU is an authority on protected speech and the school was not repecting free speech. It's powerful when you realize that's what makes our country great.

    Not gonna get in an arguement with you over illegal immigrants. I too don't feel they should be taken advantage of just so we can pay a max of a dollar for a head of lettuce. Also, that topic has nothing to do with this thread.
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