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  1. #101  
    Quote Originally Posted by daThomas
    The issue with Churchhill is more a matter of being the best person for the position he serves, President of an Educational Institution expressing a possible opinion that women are less able to excel in math and hard sciences is very relevent.

    If Churchhill taught math and said "girls aren't good at math" that would be relevent to him doing his job well.
    Sorry sport, we're not talking about teaching credentials here. We're talking about free speech. Your credentials have nothing to do with your right to free speech. Why am I not surprised that you could find a way out of this one.
    Last edited by Woof; 03/06/2005 at 10:11 PM. Reason: typo
    “There are four boxes to be used in defense of liberty: soap, ballot, jury, and ammo. Please use in that order.”
    — Ed Howdershelt
    "A government big enough to give you everything you want, is big enough to take away everything you have."- Thomas Jefferson
  2. #102  
    Quote Originally Posted by NRG
    You know, after reading your comment a little closer I do not believe I can produce a document with secular and offend in it. I just posted the most relevant thing to it. It is up to your interpretation.

    Youre right you cant because the document doesnt exist. I will applaud you for posting a very nice letter from Thomas Jefferson though. Even though Jefferson discusses the topic of religion, it hardly says secular. I'd also like to point out to you and daThomas that a Jeffersonian letter is not a Government document.
    “There are four boxes to be used in defense of liberty: soap, ballot, jury, and ammo. Please use in that order.”
    — Ed Howdershelt
    "A government big enough to give you everything you want, is big enough to take away everything you have."- Thomas Jefferson
  3. NRG
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    #103  
    Quote Originally Posted by Woof
    Youre right you cant because the document doesnt exist. I will applaud you for posting a very nice letter from Thomas Jefferson though. Even though Jefferson discusses the topic of religion, it hardly says secular. I'd also like to point out to you and daThomas that a Jeffersonian letter is not a Government document.
    Well it is not the letter, it is what is in the letter. Specifically this passage:

    Quote Originally Posted by Thomas Jefferson
    Believing with you that religion is a matter which lies solely between man & his god, that he owes account to none other for his faith or his worship, that the legitimate powers of government reach actions only and not opinions, I contemplate with sovereign reverence that act of the whole American people which declared that their legislature should "make no law respecting an establishment of religion, or prohibiting the free exercise thereof;" thus building a wall of eternal separation between Church & State. Congress thus inhibited from acts respecting religion.
    I would think since he was one of the original framers he, would know better than you or I. What do you think?
  4. #104  
    Oh so now a letter supercedes the Constitution?
    “There are four boxes to be used in defense of liberty: soap, ballot, jury, and ammo. Please use in that order.”
    — Ed Howdershelt
    "A government big enough to give you everything you want, is big enough to take away everything you have."- Thomas Jefferson
  5. #105  
    Quote Originally Posted by daThomas
    The issue with Churchhill is more a matter of being the best person for the position he serves...
    You shouldnt waste time talking about things that you dont seem to have enough information on. Ward Churchill will lose his job. It will not be because of the things he has said but because he is a fraud.
    Well behaved women rarely make history
  6. #106  
    I didnt ask for an interpretation, I asked for a document showing the word secular and the statement about not offending anyone.

    Jeffersons letter isnt part of the Constitution. If he wanted it to specifically say seperation why didnt he put it in there like it says in the letter? Maybe because the other framers didnt want it to say that specifically?
    “There are four boxes to be used in defense of liberty: soap, ballot, jury, and ammo. Please use in that order.”
    — Ed Howdershelt
    "A government big enough to give you everything you want, is big enough to take away everything you have."- Thomas Jefferson
  7. #107  
    Quote Originally Posted by daThomas
    "The mission of the ACLU is to preserve all of these protections and guarantees:
    * Your First Amendment rights-freedom of speech, association and assembly. Freedom of the press, and freedom of religion supported by the strict separation of church and state.
    * Your right to equal protection under the law - equal treatment regardless of race, sex, religion or national origin.
    * Your right to due process - fair treatment by the government whenever the loss of your liberty or property is at stake.
    * Your right to privacy - freedom from unwarranted government intrusion into your personal and private affairs."

    For one example of this, you could try reading this thread, specifically the first post. Other than that you can read all of their cases on their website. Some other recent activity:
    ------------------------------------------------
    "WASHINGTON -- A federal judge today ruled that President Bush does not have the power to hold an American citizen as an enemy combatant. The decision by U.S. District Judge Henry F. Floyd, who was appointed to the federal bench by President Bush in 2003, came in the case of Jose Padilla, a U.S. citizen being held in a naval brig in Charleston, S.C.

    "Today's decision by one of President Bush's own appointees to the bench represents yet another blow to the Administration's misguided belief that it does not have to follow our constitutional traditions in pursuing terrorists,'' said Anthony D. Romero, ACLU Executive Director. "As Judge Floyd recognized in his opinion, President Bush's actions in the Padilla case flout the checks and balances that ensure our democracy and liberty."

    In his decision, Judge Floyd ordered Padilla to be released within 45 days."
    -----------------------------------------------
    "OMAHA -- The City of Omaha and the American Civil Liberties Union of Nebraska announced today that they have reached a settlement in the lawsuit Lubna Hussein v. City of Omaha.

    The lawsuit was filed in June 2004 on behalf of a Muslim woman who was not allowed to enter a public swimming pool last summer due to her religious clothing. The city policies in place at the time of the lawsuit did not permit anyone to enter a swimming pool unless they were wearing a bathing suit. Lubna Hussein came to the pool with her small daughters to watch them swim and did not intend to swim herself. Ms. Hussein observes Muslim dress requirements for women by wearing modest clothing and a head scarf to cover her hair. "....
    -----------------------------------------
    LITTLE ROCK, AR--Following action by the American Civil Liberties Union of Arkansas, the Beebe School District today agreed to remove stickers it had placed in science textbooks undermining the validity of evolution and introducing the religious concept of an "intelligent designer" behind the origin of life. After receiving complaints about the stickers from community members, the ACLU wrote a letter to the superintendent of the school district demanding that the stickers be removed.

    "We commend the Beebe School District for avoiding unnecessary and costly litigation in this matter," said ACLU of Arkansas Executive Director Rita Sklar. "However, we are concerned that these stickers may be present in textbooks around the state, as they are the latest attempt to undermine science and bring creationism back into public schools. We would be happy to talk to the Arkansas Department of Education to provide legal guidance on this issue." ...
    --------------------------------------------
    "INDIANAPOLIS -- In a lawsuit filed by the Indiana Civil Liberties Union, a federal district judge today ruled that the Indianapolis Police Department violated protesters’ First Amendment rights by keeping them off of city sidewalks during a demonstration in 2003.

    "Activists across the country have had good reason to believe that their First Amendment right to peacefully protest is under assault," said Ken Falk, Legal Director of the Indiana Civil Liberties Union and lead counsel in the case. "But this federal judge made it very clear that the Constitution will not allow law enforcement to muzzle free expression."

    Today’s ruling comes in a case stemming from a protest during the National Governors Association meeting in Indianapolis in August 2003. The court found that Lieutenant Michael O'Connor positioned police officers on bikes and in cars to illegally block a group of approximately 25 protesters from walking through Monument Circle, the symbolic center of Indianapolis. Saying that "peaceful marching on public sidewalks is a quintessential First Amendment activity," the court rejected the argument that possible traffic delays were a valid reason for blocking the protesters, who were non-disruptive and obeyed all traffic signals. ..."
    -----------------------------------------
    "LOS ANGELES - Under pressure from the American Civil Liberties Union of Southern California, the University of California announced that it will no longer tell students studying abroad that they are prevented from participating in political demonstrations, the ACLU said today.

    The University of California revised its policy after the ACLU sent a letter warning school officials that the policy violated the First Amendment rights of students.

    "We were particularly concerned that students were being threatened with disciplinary action if they engaged in activities that are clearly protected under the First Amendment," said ACLU staff attorney Ahilan T. Arulanantham. "The new policy leaves more room for students to explore all aspects of life in a foreign country, including political life."

    The ACLU submitted the letter on behalf of Kathlyn Henderson, a 21-year-old English major at the University of California at Irvine. Henderson was sternly warned before she departed for her junior year in Lyon, France that she was not allowed to protest or participate in any political events while abroad. According to Henderson, a university official told her she could be subject to disciplinary action if she violated the policy. ..."
    -------------------------------------------------
    "NORTHAMPTON, MA -- The American Civil Liberties Union of Massachusetts today asked a federal district court in Springfield to protect the First Amendment rights of high school students who were disciplined by school officials for distributing candy canes with religious messages just before Christmas.

    "Students have a right to communicate ideas, religious or otherwise, to other students during their free time, before or after class, in the cafeteria, or elsewhere," said ACLU cooperating attorney Jeffrey Pyle, the main author of a friend-of-the-court brief submitted in the case.

    As a high school senior in 1993, Pyle was the plaintiff in a landmark ACLU case that established the free speech rights of secondary school students in the state. Today’s case is the first litigation in Massachusetts involving student free speech since Pyle v. South Hadley School Committee was decided in 1996. " Need more?
    Impressive list of a few incidents, mostly in the midwest
  8. NRG
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    #108  
    Quote Originally Posted by Woof
    I didnt ask for an interpretation, I asked for a document showing the word secular and the statement about not offending anyone.

    Jeffersons letter isnt part of the Constitution. If he wanted it to specifically say seperation why didnt he put it in there like it says in the letter? Maybe because the other framers didnt want it to say that specifically?
    Hey, I was just suggesting that he would know the interpertation of the Constitution better than you or I. What are your thoughts on that? Till I have proof such as "The Letter to Danbury Baptists" that offer some counter-perspective of this, I will believe that the framers wanted our government not to endorse religon (i.e. secular).
  9. NRG
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    #109  
    Quote Originally Posted by ttrundle
    Impressive list of a few incidents, mostly in the midwest
    Don't you mean mostly on the coasts?
  10.    #110  
    Quote Originally Posted by clairegrrl
    You shouldnt waste time talking about things that you dont seem to have enough information on. Ward Churchill will lose his job. It will not be because of the things he has said but because he is a fraud.
    You shouldn't waste your time trying to hijack this thread into a Fox news talking point. My reply was related to aclu involvement regarding his speech, not his credentials claims.
  11.    #111  
    Quote Originally Posted by ttrundle
    Impressive list of a few incidents, mostly in the midwest
    Yup, what's even more annoying is Falwell has the candy cane one listed with some other items as evidence of "the Attack On Christianity" on some site. Yet fails to mention that the aclu came riding in to defend the students rights.
  12. #112  
    Quote Originally Posted by daThomas
    You shouldn't waste your time trying to hijack this thread into a Fox news talking point. My reply was related to aclu involvement regarding his speech, not his credentials claims.
    I have nothing to do with Fox News. I do go to the University of Colorado. You are the one that stumbled across some bogus talking points so get a grip.

    First of all free speech in this country is not an absolute. You cant yell fire in a crowded theater, you cant libel somebody without repercussions, you cant talk of bombs while on aircraft and you cant use threatening language against the president without a visit from authorities. There are limitations on free speech in this country, though pretty small.

    Second, the First Amendment is not an issue in this case at all. Churchill's writings and speech have not been banned nor has there been any laws passed limiting his freedom to use such repugnant, hateful speech. For those leftists who only care about their free speech and no one else's I think they should look at reality. Churchill is only concerned about the platform he utilizes to disseminate his rhetoric, i.e. his position as professor at the University of Colorado. This is the main point of the whole argument. Should the University be forced to condone such hate speech by one of their employees who have chosen to malign and disrespect those who died on 9/11? I dont tjhink so.

    The First Amendment is a protected right and Churchill has that right to his free speech. But words have consequences, and his words, which no law kept him from writing, does to. Just because he works at a state institution does not give him, or any government employee, a license to say whatever they choose to say while on "company" time with impunity. Churchill will be fired and the University needs to realize that higher education in this country should have some social integrity and not condone such hateful disregard for an American tragedy.

    So while you think Im tryiny to "hijack" this thread, I also have a right to voice my opinion. So there
    Well behaved women rarely make history
  13. #113  
    God, I love that girl!!
    MaxiMunK.com The Forum That Asks, "Are You Not Entertained?"

    Remember: "Anyone that thinks the Treo should just work right out of the box, shouldn't own a Treo..."
  14. #114  
    Quote Originally Posted by Insertion
    God, I love that girl!!
    Agreed, get ready for the angry response from slim shady!
  15. #115  
    Quote Originally Posted by Advance The Man
    Agreed, get ready for the angry response from slim shady!
    I'm merely excercising my right to free speech!!
    (Damn, I apologize daT, I am starting to hijack your thread. )
    MaxiMunK.com The Forum That Asks, "Are You Not Entertained?"

    Remember: "Anyone that thinks the Treo should just work right out of the box, shouldn't own a Treo..."
  16.    #116  
    Quote Originally Posted by clairegrrl
    I have nothing to do with Fox News. I do go to the University of Colorado. You are the one that stumbled across some bogus talking points so get a grip.

    First of all free speech in this country is not an absolute. You cant yell fire in a crowded theater, you cant libel somebody without repercussions, you cant talk of bombs while on aircraft and you cant use threatening language against the president without a visit from authorities. There are limitations on free speech in this country, though pretty small.

    Second, the First Amendment is not an issue in this case at all. Churchill's writings and speech have not been banned nor has there been any laws passed limiting his freedom to use such repugnant, hateful speech. For those leftists who only care about their free speech and no one else's I think they should look at reality. Churchill is only concerned about the platform he utilizes to disseminate his rhetoric, i.e. his position as professor at the University of Colorado. This is the main point of the whole argument. Should the University be forced to condone such hate speech by one of their employees who have chosen to malign and disrespect those who died on 9/11? I dont tjhink so.

    The First Amendment is a protected right and Churchill has that right to his free speech. But words have consequences, and his words, which no law kept him from writing, does to. Just because he works at a state institution does not give him, or any government employee, a license to say whatever they choose to say while on "company" time with impunity. Churchill will be fired and the University needs to realize that higher education in this country should have some social integrity and not condone such hateful disregard for an American tragedy.

    So while you think Im tryiny to "hijack" this thread, I also have a right to voice my opinion. So there
    I will simply allow the ACLU statement to speak for itself:
    "Statement of Cathryn Hazouri, Executive Director, ACLU of Colorado

    DENVER -- The First Amendment of the U. S. Constitution protects University of Colorado professor Ward Churchill's right to speak or write his opinions and it protects the rights of his detractors to say they do not like what he wrote or said. The American Civil Liberties Union of Colorado stands firmly for these rights of free speech.

    The ACLU of Colorado calls upon the university Regents, legislators and the Governor to stop threatening Mr. Churchill's job because of the content of his opinions. This governmental interference with the content of Mr. Churchill's constitutionally protected opinions tramples on fundamental American values.

    The Regents should take care that the Chancellor's investigation of Mr. Churchill's competence is not a fishing expedition to find something -- anything -- to use as an excuse to fire him. If that happens, their action will be subjected to a high level of scrutiny to determine if it is really a guise to fire him for the content of his writing. As Justice Anthony Kennedy said, "The First Amendment is often inconvenient. But that is beside the point. Inconvenience does not absolve the government of its obligation to tolerate speech."

    Free speech means we may hear something we do not want to hear. However, that does not give anyone the right to stifle dissent, especially on a university campus. After World War I, when the United States was gripped with fear over the first "Red" scare, Justice Oliver Wendell Holmes urged Americans to tolerate even opinions "that we loathe and believe to be fraught with death." It is understandable that people found Mr. Churchill's comment offensive. His language was harsh and he pointed his finger of blame for the attacks at the U.S. government, not at the zealots who flew the planes.

    Death threats, canceling speaking engagements and threats of losing his job are not appropriate responses to Ward Churchill's opinions, even if you believe they are outrageous. Those threats are not expressions of American values. The ACLU of Colorado agrees with Adlai Stevenson, Jr. when he said in 1952, "My definition of a free society is a society where it is safe to be unpopular." "
  17. #117  
    Still waiting for the ACLU to jump up on behalf of Larry Summers. thomas maybe you could call them and remind them that there is another free speech case they need to take.
    “There are four boxes to be used in defense of liberty: soap, ballot, jury, and ammo. Please use in that order.”
    — Ed Howdershelt
    "A government big enough to give you everything you want, is big enough to take away everything you have."- Thomas Jefferson
  18. #118  
    However regarding Larry Summers, they did endorse this letter

    (click the url on their page to get the pdf file.)
    MaxiMunK.com The Forum That Asks, "Are You Not Entertained?"

    Remember: "Anyone that thinks the Treo should just work right out of the box, shouldn't own a Treo..."
  19.    #119  
    Quote Originally Posted by Woof
    Still waiting for the ACLU to jump up on behalf of Larry Summers. thomas maybe you could call them and remind them that there is another free speech case they need to take.
    I've already pointed out that as the prez of a learniing institution what Summers said is at the heart of his ability to do his job well.
  20. #120  
    Quote Originally Posted by daThomas
    I will simply allow the ACLU statement to speak for itself:
    "Statement of Cathryn Hazouri, Executive Director, ACLU of Colorado

    DENVER -- The First Amendment of the U. S. Constitution protects University of Colorado professor Ward Churchill's right to speak or write his opinions and it protects the rights of his detractors to say they do not like what he wrote or said. The American Civil Liberties Union of Colorado stands firmly for these rights of free speech.

    The ACLU of Colorado calls upon the university Regents, legislators and the Governor to stop threatening Mr. Churchill's job because of the content of his opinions. This governmental interference with the content of Mr. Churchill's constitutionally protected opinions tramples on fundamental American values.

    The Regents should take care that the Chancellor's investigation of Mr. Churchill's competence is not a fishing expedition to find something -- anything -- to use as an excuse to fire him. If that happens, their action will be subjected to a high level of scrutiny to determine if it is really a guise to fire him for the content of his writing. As Justice Anthony Kennedy said, "The First Amendment is often inconvenient. But that is beside the point. Inconvenience does not absolve the government of its obligation to tolerate speech."

    Free speech means we may hear something we do not want to hear. However, that does not give anyone the right to stifle dissent, especially on a university campus. After World War I, when the United States was gripped with fear over the first "Red" scare, Justice Oliver Wendell Holmes urged Americans to tolerate even opinions "that we loathe and believe to be fraught with death." It is understandable that people found Mr. Churchill's comment offensive. His language was harsh and he pointed his finger of blame for the attacks at the U.S. government, not at the zealots who flew the planes.

    Death threats, canceling speaking engagements and threats of losing his job are not appropriate responses to Ward Churchill's opinions, even if you believe they are outrageous. Those threats are not expressions of American values. The ACLU of Colorado agrees with Adlai Stevenson, Jr. when he said in 1952, "My definition of a free society is a society where it is safe to be unpopular." "
    He's still gonna lose his job...sorry
    Well behaved women rarely make history

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