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  1. #61  
    Quote Originally Posted by Sherv
    I forgot to add that I too feel frustrated with the ceaseless partisan bickering on every damn issue, but it's going to be a common issue that will surface whenever it can due to different beliefs
    Not to sound like a smart ***, but if both parties agreed on everything, there would be no bickering, nor partisanship. That's why we have two (major) parties, a difference of ideas. Personally, even though I think it's a bit much at times, I'd rather have two parties bickering about ideas than one party rule.
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  2. #62  
    Quote Originally Posted by NRG
    Are either two of you in Healthcare? I am, and I will tell you there isn't much difference between the health of either countries. (Report here and here is the short version . Both of you need not talk about, what you know nothing about. I view canadian healthcare better in the fact that ALL their citizens have access to healthcare, unlike our system.
    But don't all Americans have access to healthcare as well?

    Come to Southern California sometime and go to County USC Med. center. You'll find plenty of people there. Hell, we even give the illegal immigrants healthcare (and no, I don't say that as to mean I'd rather them die in the streets.)
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  3. #63  
    No, I'm no expert. My wife and brother are both in healthcare, so I do keep up with many aspects of it. Unfortunately, I've had several illnesses in my immediate family where I was at the hosptal for a couple of weeks in 2004 and got to see it first hand. It is horrible as far as the paperwork goes, but excellent for the care the patient receives. At a cancer hospital I spoke with a canadian family that was there for another family member. They were months out before Canada had "room" for their loved one. They will pay for that visit out of their pocket since it was in the USA. Every individual in Canada may have healthcare, but it goes from good to inexcusable if they can't admit you to take care of you.

    Quote Originally Posted by NRG
    Are either two of you in Healthcare? I am, and I will tell you there isn't much difference between the health of either countries. (Report here and here is the short version . Both of you need not talk about, what you know nothing about. I view canadian healthcare better in the fact that ALL their citizens have access to healthcare, unlike our system.
  4. #64  
    Quote Originally Posted by Insertion
    Not to sound like a smart ***, but if both parties agreed on everything, there would be no bickering, nor partisanship. That's why we have two (major) parties, a difference of ideas. Personally, even though I think it's a bit much at times, I'd rather have two parties bickering about ideas than one party rule.
    Of course...and I'm certainly not an advocate for a one party system either. I'd like to see the other parties gain more popularity and exposure...
  5. #65  
    Quote Originally Posted by Sherv
    Of course...and I'm certainly not an advocate for a one party system either. I'd like to see the other parties gain more popularity and exposure...
    Perhaps, although if you get too many parties in the mix, it gets equally ugly. In that instance you have alliances forming. "We don't have the needed votes, but we'll side with you guys if..." Much like you see in Iraq at the moment, "We'll let your guy be Prime Minister, if you give us the needed votes for X"

    And even though I hate bringing up the Hitler reference, he was brought into power even he only had only about 35% percent of the vote during his Presidential run. But through a series of events, Hindenburgh was eventually forced into appointing Hitler Chancellor. In fact the Nazi party only had about 33% of the seats in the Reichstag at that time. The rest is history.

    We don't have that form of government obviously, but alliances would still be needed to get things done. I'm not sure that's such a good thing.
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  6. #66  
    Quote Originally Posted by NRG
    /this type statement is what really pisses ME OFF. Do you really think it is right to change the rules of the Senate to fit ANY parties wishes? I mean come on. How would you react if another party was in power and decided to change the rules to suit the needs of this paticular party? Or just wait till the pendulum swings as it always does, then see how it feels, bet you won't be singing the same song.
    Do a quick search on what your boy, Robert "Sheets" Byrd did in the not too distant past to change the rules of the senate to stifle filibusters. Or his 14 hour filibuster of the Civil Rights Act of 1964.

    The rules of the senate are changed from time to time...and now is the time to the pendulum you mentioned to swing my way. The sweet whine of the Left and the Extreme Left is music to my ears.
  7. #67  
    Just read an article that Saudi Arabia has also demanded Syria to leave Lebanon. Huh, guess that makes most of the civalized world wanting this common goal.

    and, here's a quote from geostrategy-direct.com about Syria not leaving...

    "Despite the fall of the Syrian-backed government, the regime of President Bashar Assad shows no sign of withdrawing from Lebanon. Lebanese opposition sources said Syria has not signaled any intention of withdrawing either its troops or more than 1 million laborers from Lebanon. The sources said Syrian intelligence has increased its presence around Beirut and was preparing a campaign to undermine stability in the country. "

    NRG, you were plain wrong on this topic. I've respected some comments you've made in the past, but you are wrong on this one. Bush wasn't grandstanding, he was standing up to a oppressive regime.
  8. #68  
    Quote Originally Posted by Advance The Man
    The sources said Syrian intelligence has increased its presence around Beirut and was preparing a campaign to undermine stability in the country.
    They put this nicely. What this means is more assasinations, more car bombs, more murders by the muslim murderers.
  9. #69  
    Quote Originally Posted by Advance The Man
    They put this nicely. What this means is more assasinations, more car bombs, more murders by the muslim murderers.
    Last I checked, many Lebanese are also Muslim. Why the need to include that in your statement?
  10. #70  
    Quote Originally Posted by Sherv
    Last I checked, many Lebanese are also Muslim. Why the need to include that in your statement?
    Because it is accurate.
  11. hsk
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    #72  
    Quote Originally Posted by Woof
    better healthcare in Canada? better than what exactly. You ever been to the doc in Canada? Why you think so many canucks come here, cause our nurses are cuter?
    I guess the seniors from Washington come to Vancouver for flu shots because they like the rain? Oops, I guess it's just as rainy there - must be because the flu shots weren't available at home. I don't know about all the slamming of Canadian health care.

    The best thing about Canadian health care is that it's available to anyone, no matter how much money they have or don't have. But the other good thing is that if you have money and there is a waiting list for service, and you don't want to wait, you can always go to the States, and it won't cost too much, relatively speaking.
  12. #73  
    QUOTE FROM THE NEW YORK TIMES EDITORIAL PAGE:

    It's not even spring yet, but a long-frozen political order seems to be cracking all over the Middle East. Cautious hopes for something new and better are stirring along the Tigris and the Nile, the elegant boulevards of Beirut, and the impoverished towns of the Gaza Strip. It is far too soon for any certainties about ultimate outcomes. In Iraq, a brutal insurgency still competes for headlines with post-election democratic maneuvering. Yesterday a suicide bomber plowed into a crowd of Iraqi police and Army recruits, killing at least 122 people - the largest death toll in a single such bombing since the American invasion nearly two years ago. And the Palestinian terrorists who blew up a Tel Aviv nightclub last Friday underscored the continuing fragility of what has now been almost two months of steady political and diplomatic progress between Israelis and Palestinians.

    Still, this has so far been a year of heartening surprises - each one remarkable in itself, and taken together truly astonishing. The Bush administration is entitled to claim a healthy share of the credit for many of these advances. It boldly proclaimed the cause of Middle East democracy at a time when few in the West thought it had any realistic chance. And for all the negative consequences that flowed from the American invasion of Iraq, there could have been no democratic elections there this January if Saddam Hussein had still been in power. Washington's challenge now lies in finding ways to nurture and encourage these still fragile trends without smothering them in a triumphalist embrace.

    Lebanon's political reawakening took a significant new turn yesterday when popular protests brought down the pro-Syrian government of Prime Minister Omar Karami. Syria's occupation of Lebanon, nearly three decades long, started tottering after the Feb. 14 assassination of the country's leading independent politician, the former prime minister Rafik Hariri.

    If Damascus had a hand in this murder, as many Lebanese suspect, it had a boomerang effect on Lebanon's politics. Instead of intimidating critics of Syria's dominant role, it inflamed them. To stem the growing backlash over the Hariri murder, last week Syria announced its intentions to pull back its occupation forces to a region near the border - although without offering any firm timetable. Yesterday, with protests continuing, the pro-Syrian cabinet resigned. Washington, in an unusual alliance with France, continues to press for full compliance with the Security Council's demand for an early and complete Syrian withdrawal. That needs to happen promptly. Once Syria is gone, Hezbollah, which has engaged in international terrorism under Syrian protection, must either confine itself to peaceful political activity or be shut down.

    Last weekend's surprise announcement of plans to hold at least nominally competitive presidential elections in Egypt could prove even more historic, although many of the specific details seem likely to be disappointing. Egypt is the Arab world's most populous country and one of its most politically influential. In more than five millenniums of recorded history, it has never seen a truly free and competitive election.

    To be realistic, Egypt isn't likely to see one this year either. For all his talk of opening up the process, President Hosni Mubarak, 76, is likely to make sure that no threatening candidates emerge to deny him a fifth six-year term. But after seeing more than eight million Iraqis choose their leaders in January, Egypt's voters, and its increasingly courageous opposition movement, will no longer retreat into sullen hopelessness so readily. The Bush administration has helped foster that feeling of hope for a democratic future by keeping the pressure on Mr. Mubarak. But the real heroes are on-the-ground patriots like Ayman Nour, who founded a new party aptly named Tomorrow last October and is now in jail. If Mr. Mubarak truly wants more open politics, he should free Mr. Nour promptly.

    It is similarly encouraging that the terrorists who attacked a Tel Aviv nightclub on Friday, killing five Israelis, have not yet managed to completely scuttle the new peace dynamic between Israel and the Palestinian Authority. Israel contends that those terrorists were sponsored by Syria, but its soldiers reported discovering an explosives-filled car in the West Bank yesterday. The good news is that the leaders on both sides did not instantly retreat to familiar corners in angry rejectionism. Prime Minister Ariel Sharon and the new Palestinian leader, Mahmoud Abbas, have proved they can work together to thwart terrorism and deny terrorists an instant veto over progress toward a negotiated peace.

    Over the past two decades, as democracies replaced police states across Central and Eastern Europe and Latin America, and a new economic dynamism lifted hundreds of millions of eastern and southern Asia out of poverty and into the middle class, the Middle East stagnated in a perverse time warp that reduced its brightest people to hopelessness or barely contained rage. The wonder is less that a new political restlessness is finally visible, but that it took so long to break through the ice.
    http://www.nytimes.com/2005/03/01/op...als&oref=login

    If the unabashed liberal editorial page of the NYT is willing to credit the events in Lebonan to the Bush Admin, then who am I to agrue?
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  13. NRG
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       #74  
    Quote Originally Posted by gfunkmagic
    QUOTE FROM THE NEW YORK TIMES EDITORIAL PAGE:



    http://www.nytimes.com/2005/03/01/op...als&oref=login

    If the unabashed liberal editorial page of the NYT is willing to credit the events in Lebonan to the Bush Admin, then who am I to agrue?
    How bout' you take the Lebanese people's paper that says it has more to do with what went on in the Ukraine, and not Dubya's mis-adventure into Iraq?

    Lebanese opposition has learned much from Ukraine



    Wednesday, March 02, 2005


    When opposition members decided to put a red and white scarf around their necks as a symbol of the Lebanese flag after the assassination of former Prime Minister Rafik Hariri, they were not recalling the Ukrainian experience that took place five months ago, but were rather based on that experience. The international public opinion that strongly supported the popular protests against the Russian-backed regime and that sympathized with thousands of Ukrainians who supported their opposition, has become ready to accept and support a similar climate in any part of the world.

    It was easy for the Lebanese opposition to benefit from the coverage of the foreign media, which influences both the Western politics and public opinion, to show what was really happening in Lebanon, unlike what previously took place when the Lebanese situation was not fully understood. Based on the recent Ukrainian experience, which is very fresh in Westerners' minds, it was easier to understand the Lebanese situation more than anytime before.

    Therefore, the scarf was a smart approach used by the opposition to reach international public opinion, which could in turn understand and prompt Western governments to support the establishment of democracy in Lebanon, just like Europe and America did regarding Ukraine. Democracy is the password to the minds of Westerners in addition to equally important passwords, mainly protests and "peaceful" demonstrations. Holding candles, waving flags and staging unified marches under one slogan are all factors that support an undeclared plan based on the Ukraine experience.

    Moreover, the opposition has succeeded at a proper moment that has been accidentally offered by Hariri's assassination in reflecting the Ukrainian experience in Lebanon. Although many loyalists and non-loyalists believe the opposition has benefited from the momentum of international pressure against Syria to escalate its stands, it is fair to say that the international community has been moved by the Lebanese dynamics. The coincidence of the peak of popular Christian and Muslim anger and sadness triggered by the assassination with U.S. President George W. Bush's visit last week to Europe, has motivated a more firm unanimous international position toward the Lebanese people, not the opposition. Even the demands of both parties have become the same. It has become easier for the United States and the international community to consider that the Lebanese people have their say.

    Therefore, both the U.S. and the international community want the next Lebanese government and the upcoming parliamentary elections to reflect the people's ambitions.

    In this context, it was easy for the opposition to receive a positive Arab and international reaction to the popular Christian-Muslim consensus, which has allowed the opposition to break through political obstacles that could not be broken through before for considerations related to the Lebanese and non-Lebanese as well.

    There are many other factors that cannot be neglected in the political showdown opposing the Lebanese opposition and Syria, mainly that the international community is psychologically mobilized against Syria in an unprecedented way. Any political observer can easily notice the turnabout in the U.S. policy, between an administration that was trying to create objective and practical conditions to wage a war on Iraq to topple the Saddam Hussein regime, and the same administration under Bush's renewed term when the Congress, studies' centers and influential media institutions are facilitating any measure taken by the administration against Syria, including the toppling of the Syrian regime. Those U.S. measures have preceded the latest developments, but Hariri's assassination sheds light on Lebanon and puts it more under the microscope.

    If targeting the Syrian regime seems acceptable for foreign countries, it is not so for the Lebanese who together with some Arab countries fear that Syria's stubbornness might constitute another Iraq that neither Lebanon nor the region can afford.

    The Lebanese opposition is aware of that and would like a stable Syrian regime, according to what Chouf MP Walid Jumblatt said after meeting French President Jacques Chirac in Paris and what Hariri said just before his assassination.

    But Syria's problem is not with the Lebanese alone but with the international community as well. But the Syrian turmoil in Lebanon since the forced extension of President Emile Lahoud's mandate has troubled the vision of Damascus in Lebanon and outside it, which offered the opposition valuable opportunities to achieve significant progress. The toppling of Prime Minister Omar Karami's regime is not the last accomplishment of the opposition, which has achieved the first political balance of its kind since the Taif Accord under Syrian influence, and has succeeded in creating a new equation and made it difficult to return to the situation that prevailed before.
    The Daily Star: Lebanon
  14. #75  
    Quote Originally Posted by NRG
    How bout' you take the Lebanese people's paper that says it has more to do with what went on in the Ukraine, and not Dubya's mis-adventure into Iraq?


    The Daily Star: Lebanon
    Oh yeah I forgot... You're still too angry to give W any credit for anything...even if the NYT does.

    I didn't know there were that many of you (liberals) in Tallahassee? Aren't you out-numbered up there?
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  15. NRG
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       #76  
    Quote Originally Posted by gfunkmagic
    Oh yeah I forgot... You're still too angry to give W any credit for anything...even if the NYT does.
    I will give credit where credit is due. I just am not going to take any Americans opinion on what is going on in Lebanon. I would rather take a Lebanese's(sp?) word for it. Just like I would not take a Frenchmen's word for what is going on in America. And to make matters worse this artice you quoted was in the Op-Ed section, who knows who wrote that.

    Quote Originally Posted by gfunkmagic
    I didn't know there were that many of you (liberals) in Tallahassee? Aren't you out-numbered up there?
    What makes you think that I am a not conservative? If the (R) party puts someone up that is worth a damn I would vote for them. I like to think of myself as a moderate. Just to clear things up I am a NPA(No Party Affiliation). I am what the pollsters like to call a "swing voter".

    As far as Tally is concerned I am in Indian Rocks Beach(just south of Clearwater Beach).
  16. #77  
    Well, since you want to trade quote for quotes, here my latest salvo from the Asia Times (which btw the not very Pro-US)

    ...
    <snip>

    To everyone's surprise, a major change is in the making after the assassination of former Lebanese premier Rafik Hariri two weeks ago. Persuading Syria to get out of Lebanon would not have been easy before that development; however, the Middle Eastern version of the "Velvet Revolution" - or the "Cedar Revolution" to be precise - is about to materialize, with the United States' help, and now, with visible help from some Arab states. America's military power is lurking in the background, at least tacitly, signaling Damascus that any attempt to crush that Cedar Revolution will be met with equally brutal force.

    <snip>

    Now Arab leaders seem to understand the power of the information age that is posing an increasing threat to their old thinking about forces of change. Their old attitude was if you ignore those forces, or suppress them long enough, they will go away. Now they know it is an entirely different era, and a very different ball game in Lebanon. The assassination of Hariri created a firestorm of protest inside Lebanon, a reality that is being closely watched by the world at large. In addition, given that US forces were in Iraq, Syria could not have cavalierly suppressed this near-popular uprising against its occupation of Lebanon.

    To be sure, there is no credible evidence that Syria killed Hariri, who opposed the presence of Syrian troops in Lebanon. However, it remains a major suspect, its vehement denials to the contrary notwithstanding. At this point, even the absence of credible evidence implicating Syria is not helping that country. What is important is that if Hariri's death could become a reason for building the momentum for the liberation of Lebanon from Syrian occupation, the Lebanese popular movement is determined to exploit it to the fullest extent. The US is wholly supporting Lebanese public opinion in this regard.

    President George W Bush kept the demand of Syrian withdrawal very much in the international limelight during his recent European tour. In this information age, the Lebanese masses are fully aware that international pressure is working in their favor. They had witnessed what the Velvet Revolution achieved in Ukraine only a few weeks ago. Thus they are also determined to use Hariri's assassination as one more reason to tell the world that they want Syria to get out of Lebanon. The battle cry of the Lebanese masses is simply "Enough". By that they mean enough of Lebanese humiliation under Syrian occupation. Who knows, this struggle to end Syrian occupation might turn into a real force for democracy in that country.

    The gathering momentum of the Cedar Revolution or people's power in Lebanon has sweeping potential implications for the Middle East at large. Where will it stop? Its immediate purpose is to expel Syria from Lebanon. Then what? If Lebanon were to hold free elections in the coming months, the Hezbollah Party is likely to emerge as a major political force. The Bush administration must know that. What are the implications of that development to relations between Lebanon and Israel? One possibility - a remote one, but a feasible possibility nevertheless - is that there might be some sort of Lebanese-Israeli rapprochement. Syria might be thinking about just such a development in the mid-range future.

    Assad may not want to see that development materialize, because Syria had high hopes of using the "Hezbollah card" to push Israel into withdrawing from the Golan Heights some day. Once Syrian forces get out of Lebanon, there is no likelihood that Assad will be able to use the Hezbollah card for the resolution of the Syrian-Israeli conflict. It will be a new ball game for Syria, and right now it does not like the odds that are piling up against it.

    Now Syria wishes to maintain at least 3,000 troops and early warning devices in Lebanon. It already has radar stations in the Dah el-Baider mountains, on the Syrian-Israeli borders. However, Saudi Crown Prince Abdullah is insisting on complete Syrian withdrawal. Perhaps the Saudi intelligence is also deeply suspicious of Syrian complicity in the assassination of Hariri, who held Saudi citizenship and was close to the Saudi royal family.

    Assad still seems to be living, at least in his own mind, in the Cold War years. As an apparent stalling move, he sent his foreign minister to Moscow for consultation, as if Russia still holds any cards in the world balance of power, as did the old Soviet Union. Prince Abdullah and President Hosni Mubarak of Egypt know better. They are hoping their description of what is at stake for Syria made ample sense to Assad.

    There is no doubt that Syria will come out the big loser from this episode. The definite winner is Lebanon, when (not if) Syria pulls out its forces. The second winner will be the US. The Bush administration is already claiming responsibility of its own role for putting pressure on Syria. No one can deny the US a major credit in that regard.

    The presence of US forces in Iraq is making Damascus very nervous. In fact, an argument can be made that as Washington turns up the heat on Assad to pull out of Lebanon, he is likely to suffer from the same nervous syndrome that forced Muammar Gaddafi of Libya to completely abandon his nuclear and chemical programs. The Libyan dictator was reported to be having visions of himself in a small cell somewhere, awaiting a trial, as Saddam Hussein is today. In all likelihood, Assad might be envisioning a similar future for himself, if he forces America's hand on Lebanon.

    That might be one reason why Assad told the Italian newspaper La Repubblica that Syria would require "serious guarantees". Undoubtedly, such guarantees should come from the US. In the absence of the specifics of such guarantees, it is safe to assume that Assad, like Gaddafi, is seeking guarantees against regime change. It is also possible that he wants Washington to become visibly active in starting negotiations on the future of the Golan Heights. What Assad may also know is that now his negotiating position has become too weak and flimsy. Right now he should only concentrate on avoiding the potential of regime change by getting out of Lebanon, and soon.
    You wanna keep going? I have at least 20 more similar newspaper quotes and editorials from around the world if you like?
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  17. NRG
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       #78  
    Quote Originally Posted by gfunkmagic
    Well, since you want to trade quote for quotes, here my latest salvo from the Asia Times (which btw the not very Pro-US)



    You wanna keep going? I have at least 20 more similar newspaper quotes and editorials from around the world if you like?
    Sure, use a Lebanese paper.
  18. #79  
    Quote Originally Posted by NRG
    I will give credit where credit is due. I just am not going to take any Americans opinion on what is going on in Lebanon. I would rather take a Lebanese's(sp?) word for it. Just like I would not take a Frenchmen's word for what is going on in America. And to make matters worse this artice you quoted was in the Op-Ed section, who knows who wrote that.

    That was straight from the EDITORAL page of the NYT's... not the columnist page. It was written entirely by the Editorial board of the New York Times itself. Maybe if you got a free NYT account you could have seen that.
    What makes you think that I am a not conservative? If the (R) party puts someone up that is worth a damn I would vote for them. I like to think of myself as a moderate. Just to clear things up I am a NPA(No Party Affiliation). I am what the pollsters like to call a "swing voter".

    As far as Tally is concerned I am in Indian Rocks Beach(just south of Clearwater Beach).
    Cool... I've voted for candidates in both parties as well.
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  19. NRG
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       #80  
    Quote Originally Posted by gfunkmagic
    Well, since you want to trade quote for quotes, here my latest salvo from the Asia Times (which btw the not very Pro-US)



    You wanna keep going? I have at least 20 more similar newspaper quotes and editorials from around the world if you like?
    What has happened is that the lebanese are following the Ukrainian's lead. Same situation that was in Ukraine was going on in Lebanon. The lebanese saw the Ukrainians get rid of their puppet govt., and they wanted to do the same, to get rid of their Syrian puppet govt. in Lebanon.
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