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  1. #21  
    Quote Originally Posted by Insertion
    Ahhh...but how many dwarves did you toss, mate??
    Sorry to disapoint you, but you are not my type, I don't fancy short men
    Give me a tall blonde anyday
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  2.    #22  
    Quote Originally Posted by ToolkiT
    The fact you feel the need for a gun for protection ...... is wrong.
    Police should take case of security and the law, not untrained people...
    What would you suggest in the case where you need protection? Just for arguments-sake....let's say a ****** breaks into your mother's house (or if you're old enough...your daughter's house)....are you of the mind that the lady should give the guy whatever he wants and then let the police find him afterwards? (just trying to be a devil's advocate)
  3. #23  
    There is well established case law in this country that the police are NOT obligated to protect you...they exist to enforce the law. If those two goals should coincide, that all all well and good, but more likely they'll draw a white chalk outline around your corpse. (Or take you to the hospital for a rape kit.)
  4. #24  
    Quote Originally Posted by 1911sforever
    There is well established case law in this country that the police are NOT obligated to protect you...
    interesting, then the slogan 'to protect and to serv' on the side of police cars must be bogus then
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  5. #25  
    Quote Originally Posted by RicoM
    What would you suggest in the case where you need protection? Just for arguments-sake....let's say a ****** breaks into your mother's house (or if you're old enough...your daughter's house)....are you of the mind that the lady should give the guy whatever he wants and then let the police find him afterwards? (just trying to be a devil's advocate)
    My mothers house has good locks, and she has a nice collection of kitchen knives, knows self defense, her neighbours know her and if she screams they will come to the rescue. etc.
    Besides that if the ****** knew for sure he was going to get caught and punished he would think twice. Also if we take away the reason for him to want to rape a person that would be a much more productive sollution.
    Guns is fighting the symptoms, not the cause of the problem. See where I'm getting at?
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  6. #26  
    Quote Originally Posted by ToolkiT
    I choose for 2,5
    Gun for hunting, police, competition etc are fine.
    The fact you feel the need for a gun for protection if you don't live in an area where dangerous wildlife (like polarbears etc) something is wrong.
    Police should take case of security and the law, not untrained people...
    Part of my point was that people should be trained in the use of firearms (if you are going to carry one legally) and that if the state issues CCW's, then that should be a requirement (and it is in many states).

    WHERE DO YOU LIVE? I live in CA. I have lived in rural ID. Each place has criminals and people who will gladly trade your life for almost anything. Even if I accepted your point that police should protect us and we should not protect ourselves, HOW DO YOU THINK WE SHOULD PAY FOR THAT INCREASE IN LAW-ENFORCEMENT...RAISE TAXES? And you're right, it is WRONG that I feel the need for a gun for protection. I shouldn't have to feel that way but the reality is that I do (and I assume millions of other people who have guns feel the same). Just because its wrong does not mean I should limit the options that I have available to protect myself, family and others.

    Do you really believe that the police CAN protect you and your loved ones 24 hours a day?

    (Good discussion BTW-keep it up.)
  7. #27  
    Quote Originally Posted by t2gungho
    Part of my point was that people should be trained in the use of firearms (if you are going to carry one legally) and that if the state issues CCW's, then that should be a requirement (and it is in many states).

    WHERE DO YOU LIVE? I live in CA. I have lived in rural ID. Each place has criminals and people who will gladly trade your life for almost anything. Even if I accepted your point that police should protect us and we should not protect ourselves, HOW DO YOU THINK WE SHOULD PAY FOR THAT INCREASE IN LAW-ENFORCEMENT...RAISE TAXES? And you're right, it is WRONG that I feel the need for a gun for protection. I shouldn't have to feel that way but the reality is that I do (and I assume millions of other people who have guns feel the same). Just because its wrong does not mean I should limit the options that I have available to protect myself, family and others.

    Do you really believe that the police CAN protect you and your loved ones 24 hours a day?

    (Good discussion BTW-keep it up.)
    I agree that if you are allowed to have a gun, you should proof you can use it in a controlled way (much like a drivers license if you drive/own a car)

    I live in the UK now.

    Have you read post #30 ? that in a nuttshell explains what my ideal situation would be. Let me know if I need to clarify things..
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  8. #28  
    I'm for the view that anyone who wants a gun should be able to have it.

    As for ammo,......, well, that's a different story.
  9. #29  
    you can tell I'm bored, while waiting for my new SX66 PPC phone to arrive. I'm posting in off-topic
  10.    #30  
    Quote Originally Posted by ToolkiT
    Besides that if the ****** knew for sure he was going to get caught and punished he would think twice.
    True....but if a ****** knew that you are well armed, well he may think MORE than twice about breaking into a particular house.....

    Or if every woman had a gun in her purse, he would definately think MORE than twice about trying to abduct her in a parking lot.

    The fact is, criminals prey on the weak....a few months ago, a girl was abudcted in a K-Mart (or was it Wal-Mart) parking lot after her shift was over. The video tape showed the abducter in the parking lot for a long time and he was waiting for someone that he considered "weak". This was on the news a bit ago and it was out of state. If that young lady would have had a gun, the story would of been one of a hero saving herself and not one of a ******/murderor.
  11. #31  
    Quote Originally Posted by ToolkiT
    I agree that if you are allowed to have a gun, you should proof you can use it in a controlled way (much like a drivers license if you drive/own a car)

    I live in the UK now.

    Have you read post #30 ? that in a nuttshell explains what my ideal situation would be. Let me know if I need to clarify things..
    Your ideal situation makes quite a few assumptions that I would not count on where I live (or others).

    1. A LOT of people will stand around and watch someone hurt someone else. There are plenty of social studies to show that people do not want to get involved. If your neighbors would come running if someone you cared for was screaming...count yourself lucky. If I am lucky, someone MIGHT call the cops for me.

    2. You assume that rapists (and other criminals) are rational human beings. I would like to think so but how rational can someone be who rapes women (or child molesters). Again, why should I take that risk and then wait for the police to come?

    3. You assume that we CAN take away the reason for him to want to rape a person. Again, if people are not rational, we may not know WHY they do certain things (especially if there is a chemical imbalance from drugs/alcohol).

    4. You also assume that a ****** will get caught. I havent looked at the FBI crime statistics, but I think we can agree that there are more rapes not reported than there are successful prosecutions. (Again, because the police cant be everywhere to protect us).

    I AGREE WITH YOU THAT HAVING THE OPTION OF A GUN TO PROTECT ONESELF IS "fighting the symptoms, not the cause of the problem". However maybe we cant solve the problem and furthermore...I dont have the resources to solve the problem. Thats why I should have the option of protecting myself.
  12. #32  
    Quote Originally Posted by ToolkiT
    ... Also if we take away the reason for him to want to rape a person that would be a much more productive sollution....


    Please elaborate.
  13.    #33  
    Quote Originally Posted by t2gungho
    1. A LOT of people will stand around and watch someone hurt someone else. There are plenty of social studies to show that people do not want to get involved. If your neighbors would come running if someone you cared for was screaming...count yourself lucky. If I am lucky, someone MIGHT call the cops for me.
    That's a very good point, and this just happened last week....look at the video, no one helps!

    Pizza Shop Beating
  14. #34  
    Quote Originally Posted by shopharim


    Please elaborate.
    For example, provide good medical care for those with a mental issues, have proper 'social controle' (dont know the word in english, but basically people keep an eye out on each other, NOT control each other)
    Legalize and control prostitution so 'lonely' men can have sex that way.
    And finally make sure ****** get caught and punished.
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  15. #35  
    Quote Originally Posted by t2gungho
    Your ideal situation makes quite a few assumptions that I would not count on where I live (or others).

    1. A LOT of people will stand around and watch someone hurt someone else. There are plenty of social studies to show that people do not want to get involved. If your neighbors would come running if someone you cared for was screaming...count yourself lucky. If I am lucky, someone MIGHT call the cops for me.
    Don't know about the law in the US but in a lot of countries you HAVE to report a crime when you witness it.
    stepping in yourself is not allways the best sollution.

    Quote Originally Posted by t2gungho
    2. You assume that rapists (and other criminals) are rational human beings. I would like to think so but how rational can someone be who rapes women (or child molesters). Again, why should I take that risk and then wait for the police to come
    3. You assume that we CAN take away the reason for him to want to rape a person. Again, if people are not rational, we may not know WHY they do certain things (especially if there is a chemical imbalance from drugs/alcohol).
    see my previous post


    Quote Originally Posted by t2gungho
    4. You also assume that a ****** will get caught. I havent looked at the FBI crime statistics, but I think we can agree that there are more rapes not reported than there are successful prosecutions. (Again, because the police cant be everywhere to protect us).
    I agree, this is a problem, but guns are not the sollution to this problem IMHO.


    Quote Originally Posted by t2gungho
    I AGREE WITH YOU THAT HAVING THE OPTION OF A GUN TO PROTECT ONESELF IS "fighting the symptoms, not the cause of the problem". However maybe we cant solve the problem and furthermore...I dont have the resources to solve the problem. Thats why I should have the option of protecting myself.
    There are better ways than guns. mace. smurfspray (the stuff that give an unwashable blue stain), a 2 wood, baseball bat etc.
    Guns cause more problems then solve sollutions in my impression. And you'll end up in a arms race where things escalate.

    The one thing I agree with Micheal Moore's documentary is that fear fuels the arms race in the US. People get afraid, buy a gun, get in a scary situation and use the gun, then it turns out they misjudged the situation. But then it is too late..
    If we change society that it is less egocentric we might be able to take away that fear. 90+% of people are actually nice people a lot of people seem to forget that and treat every stranger like suspect..
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  16.    #36  
    Quote Originally Posted by ToolkiT
    There are better ways than guns. mace. smurfspray (the stuff that give an unwashable blue stain), a 2 wood, baseball bat etc.
    Guns cause more problems then solve sollutions in my impression. And you'll end up in a arms race where things escalate.
    I can understand and somewhat agree with Mace...but the others....definately a "nope" on that....

    1) Smurfspray (never heard of it...sounds funny though). This is saying that you're going to let the victim get victimized and then try and find the guy. This could result in a death of an innocent. If all that this spray does is turn someone blue, I think it's a horrific idea. I would HATE to be the person who recommended this and then have to confront a family of the victim afterwards.
    2) 2-wood, remember I said earlier that agressors prey on the weak. A woman with a 2-wood is as easy as a woman without any weapons. Personally, I could easily take this away from a girl....and if she's afraid in the first place, she has ZERO chance.
    3) Baseball bat, again, that bat wouldn't be hers for a long time. She "may" get one swing in and unless that connected with my head, she would be a victim.

    You seem to think that a person's safety, dignity, self-worth, etc... is secondary to the safety of a potential ******/murderor. And my feeling is this is as bass-ackwards as it could be. The safety of myself, my wife, and my child is worth far more than aggressors. And if someone ever broke in and did something to my wife..... I couldn't live with myself afterwards if I could have prevented it but valued the rapists life more than my wife's dignity & self-worth. "The police will get him later" doesn't do much for replacing the violated feeling (I'd imagine).

    My personal feeling is that people with the no-gun viewpoint can't "see the forest behind the trees".
  17. #37  
    the smurf spray is proactive and reactive, it helps identify the culprit and hence is a detterent for potential criminals.

    As for the 2wood/baseball bat, you are right in that you need some strength to make it affective. but a small woman with a gun is just as helpless, a ****** will not walk up to a girl with a sign 'I'm going to rape you' and give the girl enough time to fumble in her handbag, get the gun, put the safety off and aim and squeeze...
    Besides, what if she misjudges the situation and the guy though scary looking only wants to ask for directions/a light? at least with mace the affect it temporary.
    How would you feel telling HIS family?
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  18.    #38  
    Are you suggesting that someone will bring out a gun and shoot just because someone is coming up to you? That's a bit of a stretch don't you think? Would you take a swing with a baseball bat or mace someone for just talking to you? Or would you take a swinging stance or point the mace at someone as a deterrant first? Well, brandishing a firearms is the same way...if you feel threatened, holding a gun is a HELL of a deterrant. You don't have to point it at a person, just have it shown (only if you feel threatened). You suggesting someone will shoot first and ask questions later is a bit of a stretch. I may be wrong, but it seems like your info. is coming from movies and not from reality. If I'm wrong, I apologize but that's honestly what it seems like.
  19. #39  
    Quote Originally Posted by RicoM
    Are you suggesting that someone will bring out a gun and shoot just because someone is coming up to you? That's a bit of a stretch don't you think? Would you take a swing with a baseball bat or mace someone for just talking to you? Or would you take a swinging stance or point the mace at someone as a deterrant first? Well, brandishing a firearms is the same way...if you feel threatened, holding a gun is a HELL of a deterrant. You don't have to point it at a person, just have it shown (only if you feel threatened). You suggesting someone will shoot first and ask questions later is a bit of a stretch. I may be wrong, but it seems like your info. is coming from movies and not from reality. If I'm wrong, I apologize but that's honestly what it seems like.
    I'm not saying it happens all the time, but scared people have a jaded sense of reality.. don't know the figures, but I bet you there are quite a few cases where the defense is temp. insanity..
    As for a gun being a deterent, sure it is, but allowing guns freely also gives the ****** easy access to a gun. And yes if a criminal really want to get a gun a ban isnt going to stop him, however a ban will make it a lot harder to get access to one.
    Also if the girl has a gun, the ****** can get it off her and use it against her.
    And what if the girl has a smal pistol and the ****** has a machinegun/shotgun. then how much of a deterrent is it then? see my point? you end up in an arms race.
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  20. Talldog's Avatar
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    #40  
    Quote Originally Posted by ToolkiT
    And what if the girl has a smal pistol and the ****** has a machinegun/shotgun. then how much of a deterrent is it then? see my point? you end up in an arms race.
    The arms race analogy doesn't hold up. If she shoots first, it doesn't matter if he's carrying a bazooka.
    Talldog
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