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  1. #1961  
    Quote Originally Posted by KAM1138 View Post
    Actually, your position is based on the political consensus CLAIMING to represent science, but which is actually selectively dismissing science, when it disagrees with your predetermined conclusion.
    It's not selective when 90% of the worlds scientists agree. It's selective when one only believes the fringe few who agree with his political belief.


    That's what makes you a propagandist, and someone spitting in the eye of science, and covering that fact by claiming "scientific consensus" which DOES NOT trump actual facts.
    Global warming deniers have yet to produce any that trump the mountains of scientific research, regardless of how strident, zealous, or insulting your continued posts are.



    You become a liar, and not just a parrot when you misrepresent what I've said--repeatedly, and that is unacceptable. I'm sorry if I'm unable to turn a blind eye to these lies, but I have no obligation to accept lies about my own actions.
    You do, however, have an obligation to not partake in name-calling on these forums, and I shouldn't have to be subjected to a constant barrage of insults because I disagree with you.
    Last edited by Bujin; 12/21/2009 at 06:37 PM.
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  2. KAM1138
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    #1962  
    Quote Originally Posted by Bujin View Post
    It's not selective when 90% of the worlds scientists agree. It's selective when one only believes the fringe few who agree with his political belief.

    Global warming deniers have yet to produce any that trump the mountains of scientific research, regardless of how strident, zealous, or insulting your continued posts are.

    You do, however, have an obligation to not partake in name-calling on these forums.
    You simply keep repeating false premises--it is very frustrating to deal with someone so intellectually dishonest. I need to stop wasting my time.

    Can you really claim that AGW alarmism is NOT political? Drop the crap will you?

    Again--let me point out the FACTUAL FLAW in your "reasoning. MOUNTAIN--in other words VOLUME does not equate to validity. Get it? VOLUME does not equal science, nor does it trump even ONE contrary piece of evidence to disprove a theory.

    Let me say it again, so you cannot keep claiming ignorance (I'm sure you will anyway). ONE Piece of evidence is all it takes to Disprove a theory. Stop pretending you understand what Science is, while denying this fact. Also--look up fact while you are at it--it might help you.

    Yes, and you have an obligation to not misrepresent what I say. That doesn't stop you however.

    I can't insult you--that would imply that you could experience shame, and therefore be persuaded to be honest, but that doesn't appear to be the case.

    You apparently think that parroting the same, false justification again and again creates fact, and of course it does not.

    KAM
  3. #1963  
    Quote Originally Posted by KAM1138 View Post
    You simply keep repeating false premises--it is very frustrating to deal with someone so intellectually dishonest. I need to stop wasting my time.
    You need to stop with the insults....really.

    Can you really claim that AGW alarmism is NOT political? Drop the crap will you?
    There are politics on both sides, but the science is overwhelming.

    Again--let me point out the FACTUAL FLAW in your "reasoning. MOUNTAIN--in other words VOLUME does not equate to validity. Get it? VOLUME does not equal science, nor does it trump even ONE contrary piece of evidence to disprove a theory.
    That's simply not correct. One contrary piece of evidence would need to be overwhelmingly compelling to trump years of research. That's why scientific consensus exists: because single studies can be contradictory, and thus scientists look at the totality of data.

    You can get as aggressive as you want on this forum, but it doesn't make you more right, any more than shouting makes someone's argument more compelling....it's just louder.

    Let me say it again, so you cannot keep claiming ignorance (I'm sure you will anyway). ONE Piece of evidence is all it takes to Disprove a theory. Stop pretending you understand what Science is, while denying this fact. Also--look up fact while you are at it--it might help you.
    My degree indicates that I actually understand what science is, despite your insults to the contrary. Your assertion that a single "fact" overwhelms all other scientific conclusions is simply not correct. And what deniers present are alternative theories, usually minimally supported by evidence, and certainly not facts. I'm sorry, but you're simply wrong on the scientific concept - all global warming arguments aside.
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  4. #1964  
    Zelgo what do you do for a living? You seem to love the idea of taxing the hell out of everyone for everything. Do you have a family? Kids?
    You act like you either have tons of extra money or a strong desire to lower your standard of living "for the good of the less fortunate". Care to elaborate?
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  5. #1965  
    Dang it's cold here.....when is this global warming thing going to hit? I'm ready for summer with 90 and humid. Cold sucks.
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    #1966  
    I may come off as a stubborn ****** to most people... but I see Global Warming as a money hungry scam. Gore basses his "facts" off of natural climate change patterns... Of course the world's climate is changing... it always has. Al Gore has lied so many times... just like any politician. I don't think anything alarming is really going on. One sided liberals just need to relax.

    Lol oh, and did anyone hear about Al Gore lying about how the North Pole was going to be melted within 5-7 years? Lmao. That was great. Best part was when he admitted he was lying about it a few days after.

    What a joke.
  7. #1967  
    Quote Originally Posted by zelgo View Post
    I agree carbon trading is about money. (but carbon trading is a conservative idea--of course it's about money! That's why I favor a carbon tax to change behaviors. Interesting that you said you were told to tie everything to climate change (questionable, because in 1990, the US was barely talking about climate change--particularly NOT George Bush, the elder.). It's such a change from when GWB made sure everything coming out of federal research stripped out any mention of climate change....
    Gore was making noise about it as far back as 1988, probably even sooner. Also, just because there wasn't an official White House level policy about a subject, doesn't mean that the NSF, other governmental bodies, or Congress-Critters aren't providing cash for it.


    Actually the Vikings died out in Greenland because they couldn't farm it.
    After the 'little ice age', yes. But prior to that they farming areas that are now covered with ice and had done so for a few centuries. (986 to 1400s)


    The Maldives are already seeing rising oceans affect their coasts so the president is trying actively to resettle its people to another country (like Australia, for example). If you told them to worry more about a tsunami, they would laugh at you as an uninformed fool. I'm assuming they know more about their islands than you do. Climate Crisis . NOW on PBS
    Take a look at what happened to them with the 2004 tsunami. Their own website claims that 20 of their islands were totally destroyed, 53 suffered severe damage, and overall they were 'set back 20 years'. They are trolling for cash so their 'connected individuals' can snag some real estate. Why Australia? India is a LOT closer.
  8. #1968  
    Quote Originally Posted by zelgo View Post
    And in Europe it's the coldest it's been in a long time. 80 people have died there because the cold is so unusual. Summers there are so hot that people need air conditioners now. They are growing grapes for wine in England--unheard of until a few years ago.

    Welcome the crazy world of climate change. As the world gets hotter overall, areas go weirdly hot and cold.

    The climate is changing...
    That is so weird, I mean, the climate has never changed before!!!! Well, at least not until man started to become all industrialized....but before that....the climate was always the same. Crazy.
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    #1969  
    Quote Originally Posted by zelgo View Post
    Get real----Who's making more money, the people claiming global warming or the industries that cause pollution and don't want policies to change?

    That's why your money supposition makes no sense.

    If I wanted to make the real money, I'd join the companies, not the climate change folks!
    okay why would anyone support something that dictators across the world are supporting. Come on hugo chavez and a few african nations backing it. How do you feel knowing some of your tax dollars are going ti be going to dictators to further their warlord ways of governing. Global warming is ridiculous the only way to stop climate changes are to stop volcanos from erupting and many other natural occurances. Its proven that the earth climately moves in cycles. Remember the ice age? The polar caps have pretty much completely disappeared before and yet they are back. Its just natural it happens. That's the bottom line. Not saying we should just do what we want but taking drastic stands in our everyday way of lives is not going to do a thing.
  10. #1970  
    As an East Coast guy, I hated the predictions from a few years ago after we had 2 consecutive bad hurricane seasons and the experts like Al Gore were saying this was just the beginning, we would have more and stronger hurricanes from now on as man killed the planet. Hmmm....apparently the Atlantic wasn't filled in on this prediction as we've had 2 rather "boring" (not complaining, Charleston is due for one since it has been 20 years since Hugo) hurricane years. Funny....the experts can't predict the hurricane season, yet they can predict the temperature in 20 or 30 years. By the way, they also blew the temperatures for this week, was supposed to bee warmer here. Interesting.

    Weather goes in cycles (no pun intended). There were stretches in the 30s and 40s where both the number and intensity of hurricanes were up and I forget the exact years, but just as tornadoes have peaked recently, there are plenty of years where we've had even more tornadoes. I think the reason people think things are worse weather wise is improved technology and record keeping. How do we know how many hurricanes were kicking around in the Atlantic in 1241? Or maybe in the 1753? Yes, scientist can track damage in many cases of land falls, but not sure they can truly know how many were generated out at sea. But now? We know what weather is occuring on virtually every inch of the planet.

    If Al Gore hadn't become so wealthy off his "sky is falling" scheme, it might be easier to believe....but I think this kick he got on is what saved him mentally after he lost what he really wanted, the Presidency. He had to grab something to make his life worthwhile, or the dude would be just another retired VP who couldn't win the big one.
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  11. #1971  
    Quote Originally Posted by zelgo View Post
    And in Europe it's the coldest it's been in a long time. 80 people have died there because the cold is so unusual.
    More likely they died because they weren't smart enough to know cold can kill you. On top of that I care just as little about those 80 as I do about the Maldives. If you can't handle the climate, MOVE!
    Summers there are so hot that people need air conditioners now. They are growing grapes for wine in England--unheard of until a few years ago.
    Two new industries for these folks and you are complaining.

    Welcome the crazy world of climate change. As the world gets hotter overall, areas go weirdly hot and cold.
    As the world gets hotter overall we experience a temperature decline over the last decade. Crazy is right.

    The climate is changing...
    No argument there. Always has, always will. Even before we were here. More crazy.
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  12. #1972  
    Quote Originally Posted by zelgo View Post
    Yet you seem so quick to believe the oil executives, even more wealthy, who say climate change isn't real.

    Did you believe the cigarette compoany execs who said cigarettes didn't cause cancer?

    Al Gore is just one person. Whether he says climate change is real means nothing. The thousands of scientists supporting him are whom I believe.
    And yet ignore the thousands who say it is a bunch of whohee. I'm not relying on oil execs, in fact, many of them are scrambling to get green so they can make money off this scheme as well. Heck, they'll continue to get rich as they'll buy companies that are going along with this. I rely on the scientists who point out the facts that say that man is simply not a part of the climate fluctuations that have occured throughout the life of the earth.

    Oh oh, looks like a volcano is about to "blow" in the Philippines. Not good for Mother Earth....volcanic eruptions effect the ozone, cause greenhouse gases, and the haze, my God, the haze. I'm guessing man has something to do with these eruptions....I bet if we increased taxes on everyone we could find a way to stop these eruptions! Taxes seem to fix almost anything.
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  13. #1973  
    Quote Originally Posted by clemgrad85 View Post
    I rely on the scientists who point out the facts that say that man is simply not a part of the climate fluctuations that have occured throughout the life of the earth.
    Yeah, both of them.
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  14. #1974  
    Quote Originally Posted by clemgrad85 View Post
    Oh oh, looks like a volcano is about to "blow" in the Philippines. Not good for Mother Earth....volcanic eruptions effect the ozone, cause greenhouse gases, and the haze, my God, the haze. I'm guessing man has something to do with these eruptions....I bet if we increased taxes on everyone we could find a way to stop these eruptions! Taxes seem to fix almost anything.

    Maybe if we tax the volcano they will erupt less. Oh wait, there would be no return on that huh. OOOh i know, lets tax the animals for breathing out CO2. wait no money in that again. How about giving carbon credits to trees since they help turn CO2 to into O2. Oh wait we would LOSE money there.

    I just don't see how taxes are going to fix anything. If anything we should be looking into alternatives, not supressing them and people at the same time with stupid taxes for stuff that is gonna happen anyway.


    Please also note other countries are saying no to taxation. China even said no to external monitoring. I would love it if they cleaned up, but i am not gonna pay taxes to buy carbon credits to "offset" their carbon footprint. cause in teh end we did nothing but make rich people richer.
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    #1975  
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    #1976  
    Quote Originally Posted by groovy View Post
    Think any of the man-made global warming alarmists here will actually read and digest this?
    The Law of Logical Argument: Anything is possible if you don't know what you are talking about.
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    #1977  
    Quote Originally Posted by Micael View Post
    Think any of the man-made global warming alarmists here will actually read and digest this?
    Why read it when you can dismiss it outright based only on the perceived political leanings of the paper in which it was published?
  18. #1978  
    Quote Originally Posted by groovy View Post
    Why read it when you can dismiss it outright based only on the perceived political leanings of the paper in which it was published?
    Why believe 90% of the world's scientists when you can cherry-pick fringe scientists & articles, which you can then proclaim as more credible...based only on the criterion that they agree with you?

    There's not a post I can make here that folks won't immediately dismiss. Reports from scientists (and the concept of science itself) has been continually denigrated on this thread. But opinion pieces from partisan sources as posted as if they're fact.

    Let me try one last time for a logical look. (I don't know why...it'll won't result in anything resembling open-minded responses, but I'll try anyway). Try to take the subject away from climate change and into a more generic process:

    If you gather 1000 scientists who are experts in their field. Ask them to study a specific topic in that field, of which you yourself know little to nothing. If 950 of them end with the same result, and 50 of them have the opposite conclusion. Assume that you don't have any knowledge of their backgrounds, so there's no other reason to believe that the 50 have more expertise in the subject. Is it more logical to conclude:

    • The 950 are more likely correct?
    • The 950 all have reasons to be biased, paid off, or otherwise their opinions invalidated, while the 50 are more credible?


    That's the point of scientific consensus, which has been continually denigrated in this thread. There will always be a diversity of opinion, so the combined best thinking of the experts in the field will be considered more credible than those on the fringe.

    Put another way: do you believe that fluoride helpsprevent cavities? When many of us were kids, there were these commercials that "4 out of 5 dentists surveyed" believed that fluoride reduced cavities. While that's far weaker than the consensus in climate change, it begs the question of what would make the 20% of dentist holdouts more credible than the other 80%. Barring some knowledge of the background, expertise or other scientific smoking gun that the 20% possess, the uninformed would generally go with the 80%. Not the best example, but generally illustrative of how scientific consensus works.

    Let the criticism begin.
    Last edited by Bujin; 12/24/2009 at 07:13 AM.
  19. groovy's Avatar
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    #1979  
    Quote Originally Posted by Bujin View Post
    If you gather 1000 scientists who are experts in their field. Ask them to study a specific topic in that field, of which you yourself know little to nothing. If 950 of them end with the same result, and 50 of them have the opposite conclusion. Assume that you don't have any knowledge of their backgrounds, so there's no other reason to believe that the 50 have more expertise in the subject. Is it more logical to conclude:

    • The 950 are more likely correct?
    • The 950 all have reasons to be biased, paid off, or otherwise their opinions invalidated, while the 50 are more credible?
    Do you think that's a fair analogy? Or would a better way to express that analogy be that the leadership of the organizations to which the 950 belong signed a document stating agreement with a set of results but the 950 don't necessarily agree?
  20. #1980  
    Quote Originally Posted by groovy View Post
    Do you think that's a fair analogy? Or would a better way to express that analogy be that the leadership of the organizations to which the 950 belong signed a document stating agreement with a set of results but the 950 don't necessarily agree?
    Ya we hear an awful lot about "organizations" but very little about the scientists themselves. Most of the organizations listed so far had the same political taint the left accuses the right of. How are they better?

    An organization could have 100 scientists and only 10 and the head of the org support your position. You think the org is going to say they don't. I'd be willing to bet the org will come out on your side, which would be disingenuous.
    The climate change crowd will take the support though I am sure.
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