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  1. Micael's Avatar
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    #1701  
    Quote Originally Posted by jewel View Post
    All I can say is that green is the new red.
    BRILLIANT! I agree!
    The Law of Logical Argument: Anything is possible if you don't know what you are talking about.
  2. groovy's Avatar
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    #1702  
    Quote Originally Posted by jewel View Post
    All I can say is that green is the new red.
    That is so close to the truth its scary. And the really bad thing about it is that they've learned from both the Reds and the Red-scare mongers. The ultimate goal of hardcore Greens is to live in a global community of about half a billion or so, in perfect equality with each other and nature. A man is a boy is a dog is a chicken is a snail. None is more important or significant than the other. The only thing standing in the way is the human question.
  3. Micael's Avatar
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    #1703  
    Quote Originally Posted by toddrules View Post
    The earth is on a never ending cycle and global warming and rising water levels is part of that cycle. The cycle will eventually include the end of humans, like all all other species before us, roaches excluded but, humans are the only species ever that have increased the march to their own end. No matter what politics you have, saying we are not having an impact on the world around us is foolish and short sided. Yeah it is all part of a cycle like death is part of the life cycle, Saying pollution is just a drop in bucket, no need to worry about it is like saying smoking is ok because it is going to lead to the same end anyway.
    You guys continually miss the point on global warming, and who said anything about pollution is just a drop in the bucket?

    The argument isn't over these things. Yes, the climate shifts back and forth, yes pollution is bad and we should do what we can to clean the air, water, etc etc etc. We can all agree on those issues.

    The problem is political. Whats really happening is that congress has used this "debate" to levy one of the biggest taxes in history, and it does squat else - but raise taxes and kill businesses. Ben Lieberman, Senior Policy Analyst for the Thomas A. Roe Institution for Economic Policy Studies found this about the cap-and-trade bill:

    • Cap-and-trade is expensive and amounts to an energy tax.
    • It is the “most convoluted attempt at economic central planning” in the history of America.
    • It raises the cost of energy so Americans use less of it.
    • It regulates electric utilities, oil refiners, natural gas producers and some manufacturers.
    • In 2012, a household of four will see a higher annual energy cost of $436 due to the bill. By 2025, the cost will be $1,241. It will average $829 a year in extra energy cost.
    • The cost of electricity will go up 90 percent by 2035 under this bill. Gasoline will go up at least 55 percent.
    • The overall high energy cost for a family of four will be at least $20,000 a year in 2035 under this bill.
    • If you factor in higher production costs, the bill will cost American families $2,979 a year from 2012 -2035. Then the annual cost will be at least $4,600.
    • The bill will eliminate 1,145,000 jobs from 2012 to 2035, even with the so-called new green jobs being added. Some jobs will just be lost while others will shift to foreign countries, like China, with smaller tax burdens.
    • Agriculture will be hit hard. Farm profits, under this bill, would drop by 28 percent in 2012 and be 57 percent lower through 2035. It puts agricultural exports at a disadvantage.
    • Overall, Waxman-Markey reduces gross domestic product by an average of $393 billion annually between 2012 and 2035, and cumulatively by $9.4 trillion.

    The global warming debate is ACTUALLY a debate about taxation and stifling production. It will be responsible for moving even more jobs to China and India, where they have no such tax or restrictions.
    The Law of Logical Argument: Anything is possible if you don't know what you are talking about.
  4. #1704  
    i think its good we are starting to explore better fuels. We need to cut down on the resources we are using. I think solar energy will get much more advanced in the next 10-20 years
  5. #1705  
    Quote Originally Posted by treobk214 View Post
    AMEN!!!!
    +1
  6. kabamm's Avatar
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    #1706  
    Here we go again. Micael and Groovy and the whole gang distorting and misinterpreting the data in an attempt to scare folks into stifling progress. The National Academy of Sciences agrees humans have caused and are causing global warming. There is no longer any debate in the scientific community over what is occurring. The only debate is what to do about it, but here come the whiny right wingers to demonize the Liberals and Greens. Laissez-faire stupidity again. Politics is apparently just like driving a car - to go forward put it in D. To go backwards, put it in R.

    Boys, turn off the Fox News and read something useful instead. You might want to start with the NAS June 2009 report. Your mis-informed opinions and folksy anecdotes do not change the facts.
    Last edited by kabamm; 08/01/2009 at 09:03 PM.
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  7. kabamm's Avatar
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    #1707  
    Quote Originally Posted by aairman23 View Post
    "Do as I say, not as I do" <---Gore invented that saying after inventing the internet.
    I am SICK and TIRED of this lie. Senator Gore was deeply involved in the original development - enabling legislation and funding. He never claimed to have invented the internet, but we would not have the internet as we know it without him. Yet you all blindly hate and mock him, which simply illustrates your gross ignorance *sigh*
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  8. #1708  
    Quote Originally Posted by kabamm View Post
    The National Academy of Sciences agrees humans have caused and are causing global warming.
    And thus billions of dollars of funding continues to flow their way.

    Quote Originally Posted by kabamm View Post
    There is no longer any debate in the scientific community over what is occurring.
    Far from it. There is lots of debate about whether man is affecting the climate but those who disagree with man-made warming are dismissed, even if they originally agreed with the IPCC's findings. Just last year, over 30,000 scientists signed a petition denying man-made warming.

    .: U.S. Senate Committee on Environment and Public Works :: Minority Page :.

    What if global-warming fears are overblown? - May. 14, 2009

    Global Warming: Not the End of the World as We Know It - SPIEGEL ONLINE - News - International

    The Climate Change Climate Change - WSJ.com

    Quote Originally Posted by kabamm View Post
    The only debate is what to do about it, but here come the whiny right wingers to demonize the Liberals and Greens.
    Tell Al Gore to quit using the "Denier" label, then. Neither side should be demonizing. Scientists who are skeptical are automatically demonized because of the completely absurd theory that the science is "settled."

    Quote Originally Posted by kabamm View Post
    Boys, turn off the Fox News and read something useful instead. You might want to start with the NAS June 2009 report. Your mis-informed opinions and folksy anecdotes do not change the facts.
    Dismissing newer information that shows no human impact on climate doesn't change those facts, either. If you want to believe, despite growing evidence and increased skepticism from the scientific community, that we're all gonna die and we're doing it to ourselves, fine. If you want to believe the Earth has a "fever," fine. Go solar. Quit driving your car. Just don't force us all to follow Gore's advice (which he himself doesn't follow...) and completely cripple the economy.
  9. groovy's Avatar
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    #1709  
    Quote Originally Posted by semprini View Post
    Just don't force us all to follow Gore's advice (which he himself doesn't follow...) and completely cripple the economy.
    He doesn't have to, he can afford paying the indulgences... I mean... carbon offsets.
  10. Micael's Avatar
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    #1710  
    Quote Originally Posted by kabamm View Post
    Here we go again. Micael and Groovy and the whole gang distorting and misinterpreting the data in an attempt to scare folks into stifling progress. The National Academy of Sciences agrees humans have caused and are causing global warming. There is no longer any debate in the scientific community over what is occurring. The only debate is what to do about it, but here come the whiny right wingers to demonize the Liberals and Greens. Laissez-faire stupidity again. Politics is apparently just like driving a car - to go forward put it in D. To go backwards, put it in R.

    Boys, turn off the Fox News and read something useful instead. You might want to start with the NAS June 2009 report. Your mis-informed opinions and folksy anecdotes do not change the facts.
    You're the one boiling this down to a political issue. Politics *is* the problem. I suggest you take off the rose colored glasses, stop drinking the Koolaide, and open your mind to actual data and research that thoroughly disputes your arguments. I don't appreciate the stupidity comment, btw. My intelligence, or lack of it, has nothing to do with global warming.
    The Law of Logical Argument: Anything is possible if you don't know what you are talking about.
  11. #1711  
    You spelled Kool Aid wrong... And it's two words...
  12. Micael's Avatar
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    #1712  
    Quote Originally Posted by paymondimonium View Post
    You spelled Kool Aid wrong... And it's two words...
    damn..... sorry
    The Law of Logical Argument: Anything is possible if you don't know what you are talking about.
  13. kabamm's Avatar
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    #1713  
    I'm the one boiling it down? Absurd. Who said Green is the new Red? Take a look at that in historical context of the witch-hunt on Reds that drove this country insane for a brief while and the irony should just pierce your heart.

    Interesting links. I skimmed, deeply.

    Link 1. I'm glad to more recently hear that Senator Inhofe has joined Al Gore investigating carbon soot in relation to public health and our current extreme rate of snowpack and glacial melt. He'll come around.

    Link 2. The cold- fusion nuts had a prestigious university and advanced degrees too. Christy has repeatedly backpedaled on some of his more extreme statements. I agree with him that urban heat sink data should be in consideration.

    Link 3. Yes. Hello. Basic history. The Dark Ages were really dark because it was Really Cold - I've written several papers on the social consequences - but we're heading for a tipping point into really HOT. And that's not good. Stampf is simply claiming that we have more time than predicted by current computer models.

    Link 4. WSJ Opinion. Barely clinging to a ridiculous proposition, artfully, as usual. Now the News pages in the Journal can be relied upon for veracity, the Opinion pages just can't be taken seriously.

    I disagree that any of these links 'thoroughly disputes' my statements about the prevailing scientific consensus on global warming. It's no longer a question of whether it is happening, It's a question of what do we do about it. May I suggest you read the NAS June 2009 report on global warming?

    Oh, and it is correctly Kool Aid (tm) since you want to be all snarky about it. *snort*
    Last edited by kabamm; 08/08/2009 at 01:37 AM.
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  14. #1714  
    People in this thread really need to look up the definition of "scientific consensus". There is on serious debate - merely some outliers who dissent from the mountains of evidence.

    It's telling that you can list individual scientists who don't believe, while you can't list individuals who support the consensus because they number in the millions .It's also interesting that the famous "list of 500 scientists" who disagree with global warming included numerous scientists that were outraged over their inclusion, and at least 47 of them have demanded that their names be removed, and some have threatened legal action.
    Last edited by Bujin; 08/08/2009 at 11:25 AM.
  15. cashen's Avatar
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    #1715  
    I blame Apple and Canada.
  16. #1716  
    Glaciers a canary in the coal mine of global warming - CNN.com

    Of course, it's only the US Geological Survey, so they probably have a liberal bias and can thus be discounted.
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  17. #1717  
    Quote Originally Posted by Bujin View Post
    Glaciers a canary in the coal mine of global warming - CNN.com

    Of course, it's only the US Geological Survey, so they probably have a liberal bias and can thus be discounted.
    CNN & the US Geological Survey are well known leftist organizations.
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  18. #1718  
    Quote Originally Posted by palandri View Post
    CNN & the US Geological Survey are well known leftist organizations.
    That's because the truth is never is covered by the MSG....you know, "mainstream geology".
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  19. #1719  
    Quote Originally Posted by Bujin View Post
    People in this thread really need to look up the definition of "scientific consensus". There is on serious debate - merely some outliers who dissent from the mountains of evidence.

    It's telling that you can list individual scientists who don't believe, while you can't list individuals who support the consensus because they number in the millions .It's also interesting that the famous "list of 500 scientists" who disagree with global warming included numerous scientists that were outraged over their inclusion, and at least 47 of them have demanded that their names be removed, and some have threatened legal action.
    "Scientific consensus" doesn't necessarily boil down to fact. It just means the majority hasn't allowed themselves to be proven incorrect yet. There was a "scientific consensus" for a while the the earth was flat and the center of the universe. Took some time but the consensus eventually changed.

    Whose to say it wont again?

    Debating the issue is a moot point. Unless you're an expert in the field your thoughts on the subject are worth less, because they're based on what someone else has told you and not what you yourself have concluded from analysing experimental data.
  20. #1720  
    Quote Originally Posted by Phenom0420 View Post
    "Scientific consensus" doesn't necessarily boil down to fact. It just means the majority hasn't allowed themselves to be proven incorrect yet. There was a "scientific consensus" for a while the the earth was flat and the center of the universe. Took some time but the consensus eventually changed.
    No, there wasn't anything approaching scientific consensus. Scientific consensus is based upon the preponderance of scientific data and evidence, using the scientific method, and not just that "hasn't been proven incorrect".


    Debating the issue is a moot point. Unless you're an expert in the field your thoughts on the subject are worth less, because they're based on what someone else has told you and not what you yourself have concluded from analysing experimental data.
    But the overwhelming majority of experts in the field have stated that human impact on global warming is a scientific consensus. So, even if the thoughts of non-experts are "worthless", the thoughts of the experts shouldn't be.

    I understand that there are issues that go beyond the science, such as the economic and political impact of our actions. But the science itself isn't in any serious question any longer.

    For those interested in the topic, and the scientific reasoning behind the conclusions reached by the scientific community, info can be found here:

    American Association for the Advancement of Science
    http://www.aaas.org/news/press_room/..._statement.pdf

    The National Academies of Science
    http://www.nationalacademies.org/onpi/06072005.pdf

    the journal Nature
    http://www.nature.com/nature/journal...l/458945b.html

    Scientific American
    http://www.scientificamerican.com/ar...warming-a-myth

    National Geographic
    http://environment.nationalgeographi...g/gw-real.html
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    Last edited by Bujin; 08/08/2009 at 07:13 PM.
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