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  1. #1561  
    Quote Originally Posted by HobbesIsReal View Post
    Here is an interesting step in the right direction......

    Israel Looks to Electric Cars
    I agree and if you care to look back at post 1519 you can find the direct comments of Israeli President Shimon Peres on electric cars. He also talked about fighting global warming which he described as a threat equal to terrorism. Considering the impact of terrorism on his country, that's a particularly strong statement from Israel's President, isn't it? Here is the link to Peres's statement again for your interest.
  2. #1562  
    I was actually more interested in the solution rather than their motivation. The infrastructure that they plan (and are committed) to put in place very interesting....especially with an eye of the possibilities of adopting a similar plan here in the US. And if so, what changes would have to take place at what cost to who to make is practical with our larger distances we generally drive here. Apparently the company behind most of this is based in here in CA.
  3. #1563  
    Quote Originally Posted by HobbesIsReal View Post
    I was actually more interested in the solution rather than their motivation. The infrastructure that they plan (and are committed) to put in place very interesting....especially with an eye of the possibilities of adopting a similar plan here in the US. And if so, what changes would have to take place at what cost to who to make is practical with our larger distances we generally drive here. Apparently the company behind most of this is based in here in CA.
    Whether we follow Israel or not, we definitely need to dramatically increase US alternative energy funding and let our best and brightest (rather than amateur speculators like ourselves) have a crack at this problem.
  4. #1564  
    There is solid evidence that MARS is warming. At the same rate as the Earth.

    Damn that sun and it's wicked ways.
  5. #1565  
    Quote Originally Posted by cellmatrix View Post
    Whether we follow Israel or not, we definitely need to dramatically increase US alternative energy funding and let our best and brightest (rather than amateur speculators like ourselves) have a crack at this problem.
    Which now leads full circle back to my original question in post #1558 that started this last tangent:
    Quote Originally Posted by HobbesIsReal
    Yet still it seems that so little money, effort, and focus is dedicated to finding a solution (to an alternative fuel source). Why?
  6. #1566  
    Quote Originally Posted by HobbesIsReal View Post
    Which now leads full circle back to my original question in post #1558 that started this last tangent:
    Could it be lack of alternative energy research simply reflects a broader lack of concern about the environment?
  7. #1567  
    Quote Originally Posted by treoconvert View Post
    There is solid evidence that MARS is warming. At the same rate as the Earth.

    Damn that sun and it's wicked ways.
    wrong, its winds!
    Nature 446, 646-649 (5 April 2007)
    National Geographic News April 4, 2007

    Quote Originally Posted by National Geographic 2007
    Temperatures on Mars have increased slightly over a 20-year period due to the action of Martian winds, scientists have found.

    New research has shown that dusty tornadoes called dust devils and gusty winds have helped the surface of Mars become darker, allowing it to absorb more of the sun's rays.

    The link between dust movement and global warming is likely to be unique to Mars and not something that could affect Earth, the scientists added.
  8. #1568  
    Quote Originally Posted by cellmatrix View Post
    Could it be lack of alternative energy research simply reflects a broader lack of concern about the environment?
    Here are some ideas that I have why there is a massive lack of funding and research towards finding a viable alternative energy solution that can be implemented into a massive infrastructure to support it at an economical price for the consumer "at the pump" level:

    One: Gov Support. In spite of all the talk from Pres Bush I really have not seen any real push or incentives or aid offered to advance research. I am generally against the gov stepping in as a general principle and becoming the source of motivation for a movement & development that could be or should be handled in the private sector.

    But since the solution will have to involve a major overhaul in our national gas distribution infrastructure, have direct effects on our economy, potentially spark very harsh actions from those in the middle east that would loose the number one oil consumer as a customer for all transportation fuel, etc... This time they do need to step up and offer financial assistance for research, tax breaks, an X prize, etc... to spur this on. Research needs to be in a larger part than it is now funded by the gov to take a little of the financial risk factor out of the private sector as new ideas are tried and scrapped in R&D. Devil is in the details, but I would vote for a gas tax that went to this with published results every 6 months.

    Two: Money / Greed. Right now as I mentioned above there is too much money to be earned and taken advantage of right now with the both the oil companies on one side with the motivation to keep oil as the number source for transportation and Carbon Credit Sales on the other side with the same motivation. These two avenues need to leveraged with an invested interest in developing and deploying an alternative fuel source. They could be given a 5-10% tax break (which is massive concerning their revenues) if 100% of that money went to 3rd party organizations / companies / academic institutions developing alternative fuel source and infrastructure research. Again with progress reports every 6 months.

    Three: No sense of public urgency. There needs to be an active, massive, and on going public education program to gain public support and then hopefully public demand for this. To avoid the Right Wingers and the Left Wingers distracting from the this message bickering about what the motivations for this movement is, we need to focus on the solutions and the benefits of implementing a solution be it environmentally friendly, increasing our national security, solidify the basis of our economy, etc... To fund this we could use a tax break for the oil companies to help fund research above and since the Carbon Credits are suppose to be all about improving the environment and our awareness of our personal effects on it, their tax breaks would assist to fund this with their tens of billions industry.

    This is just as important as research as public complacency is a great environment to stall and squander money if these programs do not have a very public eye watching it's progress and demanding results.

    I fear though that it is going to take $6.85 a gallon price hike that will kill our economy to bring about this sense of urgency to look for alternative fuels. But then there will not be the money to research as we would have now.

    Four: Action Now. Every Day People Can Take Action. There is a lot that we can do now to add to this cause. It sounds cliche, but it can never be underestimated the use of local newspapers, contacting gov officials, talk radio, etc... in sharing any of these ideas and the urgency to move now.
    Last edited by HobbesIsReal; 01/23/2008 at 05:05 PM.
  9. #1569  
    Quote Originally Posted by HobbesIsReal View Post
    Here are some ideas that I have why there is a massive lack of funding and research towards finding a viable alternative energy solution that can be implemented into a massive infrastructure to support it at an economical price for the consumer "at the pump" level
    I agree and would add that investing more federal dollars into basic research on energy alternatives would act as a springboard to foster translational applications by the private sectors. In addition, the disinformation campaign by the far right to promote inaction on global warming has up to now been a major impediment towards progress.
  10. #1570  
    I agree. This is what I am talking about with solutions based on motivations instead of solutions based on benefits and progress. But is goes both ways.

    Because on the flip side, both in personal discussions in my real life and several examples here in this forum and in party politics, many on the left totally resist talking about solutions when points are brought up about our present national security oil dependency concerns and the strong possibility that these will only increase if we truly engage in becoming oil independent. They shut down all avenues of possible progress and focus on their perceived errors of the motivation.

    It happens on both sides, and both sides need to take the short term political agenda personal motivation out and focus on national benefits instead of party jabs.
  11. #1571  
    Quote Originally Posted by HobbesIsReal View Post
    many on the left totally resist talking about solutions when points are brought up about our present national security oil dependency concerns and the strong possibility that these will only increase if we truly engage in becoming oil independent. They shut down all avenues of possible progress and focus on their perceived errors of the motivation.
    Hobbes are you changing the subject from global warming to national security and oil dependence? Anyway, I like both conservation and alternative energy (including nuclear) research because they can improve both global warming as well as our oil independence. They are much better alteratives to preemptive invasion and ignoring global warming. And just drilling and using up all of our own natural oil reserves as fast as we can does nothing but discourage conservation, increase global warming and further trash our environment. If your friends on the left also shut down those latter avenues, maybe, like me, they do not consider them as leading to progress.
  12. #1572  
    Quote Originally Posted by cellmatrix View Post
    Hobbes you are changing the subject from global warming to oil independence.
    No. See what I mean. Perfect example. I am talking about solutions to help solve one of the major sources for global warming....stopping oil burning in transportation and heating, coal burning to create electricity, etc..... I am talking about developing alternative oil energy sources by focusing on the benefits of what would come of it and not the politically charged motivations for wanting to get there.

    But you just proved my point that we need to talk about benefits of solutions. When we focus just the causes of motivation the process comes to a screeching halt.

    For those on the left the motivation for developing alternative energy source are the claims that it is the one of the major sources destroying our planet. Then the right come to a screeching halt and stop looking at the benefits of the solutions of an alternative energy and focus on the left's claims.

    When the right get motivated for finding an alternative energy source because of their perspective for the need to become oil independent, the left comes to a screeching halt (like you did) and stop looking at the benefits of the solutions of an alternative energy and focus on the right's claims.

    The solutions are the same. The solutions benefits all sides. Political bias is one of the major items in the way. Who cares if the person sees the need for oil independence so terrorists do not collapse our economy and ruin the country by bombing and destroying our oil pipelines and reserves. Who cares if the sole source of their motivation for finding an alternative energy source is to stop the ocean level from rising 130 feet in the next 3 years.

    Addressing this major issue and overcoming these major biased stumbling blocks so we can move forward is a valid and must be talked about topic to help resolve and move forward.

    EDIT: You deleted your original post with the new one while I was writing my reply =)
    Last edited by HobbesIsReal; 01/28/2008 at 11:16 AM.
  13. #1573  
    Quote Originally Posted by HobbesIsReal View Post
    When the right get motivated for finding an alternative energy source because of their perspective for the need to become oil independent, the left comes to a screeching halt (like you did) and stop looking at the benefits of the solutions of an alternative energy and focus on the right's claims..
    I appreciate your interest in alternative energy and share it with you. Please understand that trying to define what we are talking about is certainly not my way of taking anything to a screeching halt. I look forward to that time when the right take the leadership role on alternative energy instead of kicking and screaming about finding and burning as much oil as possible through any means. I suspect that once they figure out (from more federally funded research and development) how to make money from alternative energy , the right will happily follow along.
  14. #1574  
    Quote Originally Posted by cellmatrix View Post
    I appreciate your interest in alternative energy and share it with you. Please understand that trying to define what we are talking about is certainly not my way of taking anything to a screeching halt. I look forward to that time when the right take the leadership role on alternative energy instead of kicking and screaming about finding and burning as much oil as possible through any means. I suspect that once they figure out (from more federally funded research and development) how to make money from alternative energy , the right will happily follow along.
    Pardon me for jumping in, but in addition to the point Hobbes is making, I think stereotypes are damaging progress as well. It is a fallacy to assume that all right-wing people only care about money and care nothing for the environment. It's like saying that all left-wing people are just emotional tree-huggers. Instead, it's important to find a balance between utopia and current reality --- solutions must be found that protect our environment while preserving national security and our economy. Just my two cents
    Palm since Palm Professional --- Treo 650 (2 yrs), iPhone since 6/29/07
  15. #1575  
    Quote Originally Posted by Bri Guy View Post
    Pardon me for jumping in, but in addition to the point Hobbes is making, I think stereotypes are damaging progress as well. It is a fallacy to assume that all right-wing people only care about money and care nothing for the environment. It's like saying that all left-wing people are just emotional tree-huggers. Instead, it's important to find a balance between utopia and current reality --- solutions must be found that protect our environment while preserving national security and our economy. Just my two cents
    Sometimes I get somewhat callous and I do appreciate your reminding me of this. Its really the reason why I enjoy posting here in off topics is to learn about viewpoints different from mine and to try to understand where others are coming from.
  16. #1576  
    Quote Originally Posted by cellmatrix View Post
    Sometimes I get somewhat callous and I do appreciate your reminding me of this. Its really the reason why I enjoy posting here in off topics is to learn about viewpoints different from mine and to try to understand where others are coming from.
    I enjoy this forum as well. It's refreshing to have an intelligent discussion with open-minded people. Perhaps we can in some way generate momentum to apply real, working solutions to the most pressing problems.
    Palm since Palm Professional --- Treo 650 (2 yrs), iPhone since 6/29/07
  17. #1577  
    Quote Originally Posted by HobbesIsReal View Post
    Here is an interesting step in the right direction......

    Israel Looks to Electric Cars

    If this was implemented in the US, there would need to be a spare battery compartment and battery to fill it as well. I will be interested in how much this translates in subscription cost per mile if 80% of the batteries were used before exchanging it 3 times a week.
    Electric cars have several advantages, but there is no direct link to CO2 emissions. The main question is, where does the energy for charging the batteries come from?

    If the electrical energy comes from nuclear power or other sources which don't lead to CO2-emissions (nuclear, hydro, solar, etc.), fine. In reality, in many countries most electricity is generated by power plants using oil, gas or (even worse) coal to produce electricity. In 1998 in the US, primary power generation resources converted to electricity were coal, accounting for 52 %; natural gas, 15 %; oil, 4 %,;nuclear, 19 percent; and hydro, 9 percent - meaning 71 % generated including massive CO2 emissions.


    BTW: Biofuels produced from corn (as suggested by Bush) don't really make sense either. Producing one gallon of biofuel causes about the same amount of CO2 emission as the equivalent of one gallon of gas, so you could just as well use the gas directly. Biofuel from corn does not work as a means against CO2 emission.
    “Reality is that which, when you stop believing in it, doesn't go away.” (Philip K. ****)
  18. #1578  
    Quote Originally Posted by clulup View Post
    [...] BTW: Biofuels produced from corn (as suggested by Bush) don't really make sense either. Producing one gallon of biofuel causes about the same amount of CO2 emission as the equivalent of one gallon of gas, so you could just as well use the gas directly. Biofuel from corn does not work as a means against CO2 emission.
    Additionally, it reduces the food supply of corn and increases prices to those who have corn as a main staple of their diet and can little afford it (e.g. Mexico).
    ‎"Is that suck and salvage the Kevin Costner method?" - Chris Matthews on Hardball, July 6, 2010. Wonder if he's talking about his oil device or his movie career...
  19. #1579  
    Nuclear cars would be cool
    Palm since Palm Professional --- Treo 650 (2 yrs), iPhone since 6/29/07
  20. gojeda's Avatar
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    #1580  
    I'll take a BMW 7-series hydrogen internal combustion engine prototype instead.

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