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  1. #961  
    Quote Originally Posted by chillig35 View Post
    .............It is unfortunate that you would equate scientific assessments on par with scriptures.........
    I tried to be very careful not to do that. Indeed, I expressed a clear preference for science. I was merely commenting on the limitations of my own ability to know. I was making an epistimological comment on the limits of knowledge, from whatever source.

    Also from the List of Heresies and Other Words I try to Live by: There is no "Truth;" there is only hypothesis and evidence. But unless one collect the evidence one's self, then the conclusions are received wisdom.
  2. backbeat's Avatar
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    #962  
    Quote Originally Posted by whmurray View Post
    Tell me one more time what you would do with the $50B.
    Since 1990, the $25-50B/year is what is spent currently to maintain the amendments to the Clean Air and Water Act. Of course, the only effect that investment has had is heeling the formerly gaping, rapidly widening hole in the ozone layer, that's all. No big whoop.

    Just for starters ... Reestablish and refund the Superfund, which was gutted as one of Shrub's first kept promises to industrial Special Interests. The effects of the Superfund during the 1990's were unquestionably improved land and water quality, holding industry responsible for their illegal and immoral actions. Laws with razer-sharp teeth are good. Just ask Duke Power.

    Perhaps it is time to stop doing research on global warming and start doing research on what to do about it.
    Outside of reducing CO2 emissions on a large scale, what else do you propose? Or, are you just another very typical American frog? This issue can only be effectively addressed at the Federal level. Do you really think your local county commission matters at this point in time on issues this large? We know the causes and the effect, based on the historical relationship between the pattern of extreme increase in industrial CO2 emissions and the physical evidence.
  3. #963  
    Quote Originally Posted by backbeat View Post
    ..........
    Outside of reducing CO2 emissions on a large scale, what else do you propose? Or, are you just another very typical American frog? This issue can only be effectively addressed at the Federal level. Do you really think your local county commission matters at this point in time on issues this large? We know the causes and the effect, based on the historical relationship between the pattern of extreme increase in industrial CO2 emissions and the physical evidence.
    First, that ball is not in my court. I simply observed that those who are whining about global warming do not offer any remedies. I asked for solutions. I wish that I had proposals to make but if the absence of proposals means that I should be silent, then I will shut up when all the others who have nothing to propose also stop talking.

    Second, I have not heard any proposals as to how to reduce CO2 omissions on even a modest scale, much less one that is effective.

    Third, I have not heard any representations that that would reverse global warming in a century, much less a generation or two.

    I may well be a "frog." What I am not is Chicken Little. Even if Little had been right, he might still as well have been silent. Climate has been changing for millenia. I am not ready to conclude that the present climate is the optimum one. It is simply the "devil I know."

    In this space, I am a conservative. Protecting the environment is a conservative value. [It is also a liberal value. It is a "leftist" value only when viewed relative to George W. Bush.] As a conservative, I start by trying not to make things worse, at least until someone suggests a better idea. Therefore, I support reasonable proposals for "reducing CO2 emissions," even though I have not been told and do not believe that it will reduce global warming.
  4. #964  
    Nothing significant will happen in this regard until we reduce the total global energy consumption. Reducing per capita energy consumption in US will go a long way in doing this, and will offset some of the increase coming from the developing world.

    When will this happen? Never, until the cost of energy goes up substantially. We can do that now in a somewhat controlled manner through carbon tax and trading.

    More likely, the free market will prevail and we'll continue our energy habits until the marketplace forces us (as a country and as individuals) to change because of the law of supply and demand.

    It won't be pretty.
    --
    Aloke
    Cingular GSM
    Software:Treo650-1.17-CNG
    Firmware:01.51 Hardware:A
  5. #965  
    Quote Originally Posted by whmurray View Post
    I have not heard any proposals as to how to reduce CO2 omissions on even a modest scale, much less one that is effective.
    I guess you just haven't heard any proposals because you live in a stone age country regarding efficient use of energy. Others are way ahead of you when it comes to dealing with the problem:

    EU agrees to cut greenhouse emissions by 20%
    Carbon cut will mean cleaner cars
    That's just one example in many.
    “Reality is that which, when you stop believing in it, doesn't go away.” (Philip K. ****)
  6. #966  
    Quote Originally Posted by aprasad View Post
    When will this happen? Never, until the cost of energy goes up substantially. We can do that now in a somewhat controlled manner through carbon tax and trading.
    This has been established in Switzerland. So no use pretending it is not possible.
    “Reality is that which, when you stop believing in it, doesn't go away.” (Philip K. ****)
  7. #967  
    Quote Originally Posted by aprasad View Post
    Nothing significant will happen in this regard until we reduce the total global energy consumption. Reducing per capita energy consumption in US will go a long way in doing this, and will offset some of the increase coming from the developing world.

    When will this happen? Never, until the cost of energy goes up substantially. We can do that now in a somewhat controlled manner through carbon tax and trading.

    More likely, the free market will prevail and we'll continue our energy habits until the marketplace forces us (as a country and as individuals) to change because of the law of supply and demand.

    It won't be pretty.
    I agree in principle. I would note that national policy, particularly tax policy, encourages consumption in general and energy consumption in particular.
  8. backbeat's Avatar
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    #968  
    Quote Originally Posted by whmurray View Post
    First, that ball is not in my court.
    You have no greater nor no lesser a degree of responsibility than anyone else.

    I simply observed that those who are whining about global warming do not offer any remedies.
    Your whine about whining is duly noted. You're also flat wrong.

    I asked for solutions. I wish that I had proposals to make but if the absence of proposals means that I should be silent, then I will shut up when all the others who have nothing to propose also stop talking.
    You claim to have an understanding of the primary cause of the greenhouse effect, yet are stumped on how to reverse its effect which defies reason and responsibility.

    Second, I have not heard any proposals as to how to reduce CO2 omissions on even a modest scale, much less one that is effective.
    Define effective.

    Third, I have not heard any representations that that would reverse global warming in a century, much less a generation or two.
    How many lifetimes will you live on this single planet? What will you do with the one you have?

    If this planet had any history which replicated the current climate crisis' cause and effect, that would make it convenient to extrapolate a potential timeline for correction, now wouldn't it? No excuses.

    Climate has been changing for millenia.
    No historical similarities exist in global climate changes which have been recorded over the past 40 years. None even remotely similar.
  9. #969  
    Quote Originally Posted by aairman23 View Post
    I agree. I feel like the far left makes such rediculous claims about how all the sudden all our cities are going to be underwater. The more fantastical the claims become, the more people will simply believe it is impossible to fix. Then moderates like me will quit trying to "pitch in" and "do our part".

    Would it be considered "reasonable" to believe that our technology will evolve along with climate change? (protecting us and maybe a polar bear or two

    Aaron
    Aaron, according to a consensus of the leading climate scientists around the world, significant consequences are likely if we don't do something about global warming. Only the fringe right could dismiss these conclusions out of hand.

    http://www.sciam.com/article.cfm?ali...modsrc=reuters
  10. #970  
    Quote Originally Posted by cellmatrix View Post
    Aaron, according to a consensus of the leading climate scientists around the world, significant consequences are likely if we don't do something about global warming. Only the fringe right could dismiss these conclusions out of hand.

    http://www.sciam.com/article.cfm?ali...modsrc=reuters
    Not! They say that significant consequences are likely no matter what we do.

    That is the problem with their apocalyptic rhetoric. It incapacitates. It does not motivate, empower, or enable.
  11. #971  
    Quote Originally Posted by backbeat View Post
    .........Define effective.......
    How about within the lifetime of my grandchildren?

    As I listen to the doomsayers, they will not even grow up, much less have a life span like mine or have grandchildren of their own. Game over!

    Mind you, I do not advocate doing nothing. I think globally and act locally. However, if I cut my carbon footprint to zero and my energy consumption to zero (that is, if I starve to death), it will not protect my grandchildren.

    In fact, what I expect to happen is that as the globe warms, energy consumption will go up, not down.

    Perhaps the doomsayers will manage to convince people that they should fear global warming more than they fear nuclear power. I do not expect to see that in my lifetime. (Thank heavens for the French.)

    So, you may harangue and "dis" me all you like. However, I am not the guy you have to convince and you are doing very poorly on him.

    What am I missing?
  12. #972  
  13. #973  
    Quote Originally Posted by whmurray View Post
    They say that significant consequences are likely no matter what we do.
    Did you even read the article?

    Quote Originally Posted by article
    "This further underlines both how urgent it is to reach global agreement on reducing greenhouse gas emissions and how important it is for us all to adapt to the climate change that is already under way," said European Environment Commissioner Stavros Dimas."
    http://www.sciam.com/article.cfm?ali...modsrc=reuters
    Last edited by cellmatrix; 04/06/2007 at 01:50 PM.
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    #974  
    Quote Originally Posted by whmurray View Post
    Not! They say that significant consequences are likely no matter what we do.

    That is the problem with their apocalyptic rhetoric. It incapacitates. It does not motivate, empower, or enable.
    Stress reduces you to a puddle. OK. Got it.
  15. backbeat's Avatar
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    #975  
    Quote Originally Posted by whmurray View Post
    How about within the lifetime of my grandchildren?
    So, because there has never been a pattern of potentially catastrophic climate change to occur in a single generation within recorded history, with the sole exception of the past 40 years, you cop a plea of plausible denial. How precious! Explain that to your grandkids when they're old enough to understand what adult responsibility really means.

    Mind you, I do not advocate doing nothing.
    Sure you do, as shown by your your bob-and-weave argument.

    If I cut my carbon footprint to zero and my energy consumption to zero (that is, if I starve to death), it will not protect my grandchildren.
    Kindly quote anyone who has made this agregious suggestion. <cue the crickets chirping audio>

    Perhaps the doomsayers will manage to convince people that they should fear global warming more than they fear nuclear power. I do not expect to see that in my lifetime. (Thank heavens for the French.)
    Thanks for sharing your agenda.
  16. #976  
    Quote Originally Posted by backbeat View Post
    So, because there has never been a pattern of potentially catastrophic climate change to occur in a single generation within recorded history, with the sole exception of the past 40 years, you cop a plea of plausible denial. How precious! Explain that to your grandkids when they're old enough to understand what adult responsibility really means.



    Sure you do, as shown by your your bob-and-weave argument.



    Kindly quote anyone who has made this agregious suggestion. <cue the crickets chirping audio>



    Thanks for sharing your agenda.
    I give up. You win.
  17. #977  
    Quote Originally Posted by whmurray View Post
    I give up. You win.
    Quote Originally Posted by whmurray View Post
    I give up. You win.
    I guess all you have to do is hit replay and you can start again.
    Last edited by cellmatrix; 04/06/2007 at 02:16 PM.
  18. backbeat's Avatar
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    #978  
    Quote Originally Posted by cellmatrix View Post
    I guess all you have to do is hit replay and you can start again.
    Is there a circular pattern here? Or, was that just pure avoidance?
  19. #979  
    Quote Originally Posted by backbeat View Post
    Is there a circular pattern here? Or, was that just pure avoidance?
    Unfortunately some people think its a game but in reality it is a matter that deserves to be dealt with seriously.
  20. backbeat's Avatar
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    #980  
    Quote Originally Posted by cellmatrix View Post
    Unfortunately some people think its a game but in reality it is a matter that deserves to be dealt with seriously.
    It's not as if the loss of Greenland has any consequential meaning, right?

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