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  1.    #481  
    Interesting read. Seems scientist has a dissenting opinion and other scientist who have an engraved opinion that man is the root of all climate changes won't consider his hypothesis.

    August 23, 2005
    Panelist Who Dissents on Climate Change Quits

    By ANDREW C. REVKIN
    A scientist who has long disagreed with the dominant view that global warming stems mainly from human activity has resigned from a panel that is completing a report for the Bush administration on temperature trends in the atmosphere.

    The scientist, Roger A. Pielke Sr., a climatologist at Colorado State University, said most of the other scientists working on the report were too deeply wedded to particular views and were discounting minority opinions on the quality of climate records and possible causes of warming.

    "When you appoint people to a committee who are experts in an area but evaluating their own work," he said in an interview, "it's very difficult for them to think outside the box of their research."

    Administration officials said the resignation would not affect the quality or credibility of the report, a draft of which is being finished in the next few weeks.

    The report, the first product of President Bush's 10-year climate change research program, is likely to be closely scrutinized by climate scientists and environmental and industry groups for any sign of bias or distortion.

    .

    Its main focus is to explore why thermometers at the earth's surface, especially in the tropics, have measured more warming than has been detected by satellites and weather balloons in the troposphere, the layer of the atmosphere up to where jetliners cruise.

    Dr. Pielke contends that changes in landscapes like the spread of agriculture and cities could explain many of the surface climate trends, while most climate experts now see a clear link to accumulating emissions of heat-trapping gases like carbon dioxide.

    James R. Mahoney, an assistant secretary of commerce and the director of the federal climate research program, said the scientists involved in generating the report were "representative of the broad views" on the questions.

    Mr. Mahoney noted that drafts of the climate report would be reviewed by the National Academy of Sciences and were subject to public comment.

    "I'm disappointed that Dr. Pielke has chosen to resign over this," Mr. Mahoney said.

    Dr. Pielke said he decided to resign after three papers on the troposphere trends were published online on Aug. 11 by the journal Science. The papers said errors in satellite and balloon studies in the tropics explained why earlier analyses failed to find warming in the troposphere.

    Several authors of those papers, who are also authors of the coming government report, said at the time that the new findings would be discussed in the report.

    Dr. Pielke said those statements were an effort to influence the shape of the final report.

    Several authors of those papers denied this, saying the process of creating the reports is intended to be public, while the contents remain confidential for now.

    John R. Christy, another author of the coming report who like Dr. Pielke doubts that human-caused warming poses a serious threat, said that while disagreements were normal, the effort to generate the report was improving understanding.

    "This process is the worst way to generate scientific information," said Dr. Christy, who teaches at the University of Alabama, Huntsville. "Except for all the others."


    Copyright 2005 The New York Times Company
    LINK
  2. #482  
    Interesting article Advance. Dr.Roger A. Pielke Sr seems to have thrown a temper tantrum because the most reputable science journal in the world has published not one but three articles in the last month that shattered his little fantasy that humans have nothing to do with global warming. With his scientific reputation on the line, it is understandable that he is doing everything he can to try to discredit this. But the trouble is, all he has is his whining and no new data to refute the most recent findings. Thanks for keeping an interest in this, I am glad that you do follow the issue, it is really important and affects all of us.
  3.    #483  
    Quote Originally Posted by cellmatrix
    Interesting article Advance. Dr.Roger A. Pielke Sr seems to have thrown a temper tantrum because the most reputable science journal in the world has published not one but three articles in the last month that shattered his little fantasy that humans have nothing to do with global warming. With his scientific reputation on the line, it is understandable that he is doing everything he can to try to discredit this. But the trouble is, all he has is his whining and no new data to refute the most recent findings. Thanks for keeping an interest in this, I am glad that you do follow the issue, it is really important and affects all of us.
    Not sure if threw a temper tantrum, seems to me he resigned. Sounds as if his opinion was given no credence. He discusses that the other scientists did not have an open mind to consider anything but the opinion they brought in prior to the assignment. Sad that this may be a problem, but no one is listening to a dissenting opinion.
  4. #484  
    Quote Originally Posted by Advance The Man
    Not sure if threw a temper tantrum, seems to me he resigned. Sounds as if his opinion was given no credence. He discusses that the other scientists did not have an open mind to consider anything but the opinion they brought in prior to the assignment. Sad that this may be a problem, but no one is listening to a dissenting opinion.
    Science works by demonstration of hard data. If he is able to refute the data effectively, the best response would be to write a letter of response to the editors of science, which details how the data are flawed. If he did this and presented a convincing argument, I would be glad to give it creedence. At this point, just whining and resigning does not convince me of anything except perhaps he has no other options. I strongly suspect that he knew about the data early and could have written a letter to Science to accompany the publication of the articles, if he had any type of rational argument. We'll see how this pans out.
  5. #485  
    Let's get past the finger pointing and get straight to the results. I'll just list what are currently debated as facts:

    FACTS
    1. The world is getting warmer
    2. Humans are responsible
    3. There is nothing we can do right now (even if every breathing human participated) to show ANY effect within the next 50 years
    4. Any efforts would only show their effects after 50 years

    Big question (for discussion purposes only, doesn't reflect my own views):
    So what?

    Why should we care and why should we bother doing anything about it?
    Recognizing that I volunteered...
  6. #486  
    Quote Originally Posted by AlaskanDad
    Let's get past the finger pointing and get straight to the results. I'll just list what are currently debated as facts:

    FACTS
    1. The world is getting warmer
    2. Humans are responsible
    3. There is nothing we can do right now (even if every breathing human participated) to show ANY effect within the next 50 years
    4. Any efforts would only show their effects after 50 years

    Big question (for discussion purposes only, doesn't reflect my own views):
    So what?

    Why should we care and why should we bother doing anything about it?
    I was guest teaching in a local high school in the 70's when a student asked me why we should spend all that money going to the moon when we needed it to "end poverty?" I answered that we knew how to go to the moon and that amount of money would get us there.
  7. #487  
    Quote Originally Posted by AlaskanDad
    Let's get past the finger pointing and get straight to the results. I'll just list what are currently debated as facts:

    FACTS
    1. The world is getting warmer
    2. Humans are responsible
    3. There is nothing we can do right now (even if every breathing human participated) to show ANY effect within the next 50 years
    4. Any efforts would only show their effects after 50 years

    Big question (for discussion purposes only, doesn't reflect my own views):
    So what?

    Why should we care and why should we bother doing anything about it?
    Nice people leave the scene a little cleaner than they found it.
  8. #488  
    Quote Originally Posted by AlaskanDad
    Let's get past the finger pointing and get straight to the results. I'll just list what are currently debated as facts:

    FACTS
    1. The world is getting warmer
    2. Humans are responsible
    3. There is nothing we can do right now (even if every breathing human participated) to show ANY effect within the next 50 years
    4. Any efforts would only show their effects after 50 years

    Big question (for discussion purposes only, doesn't reflect my own views):
    So what?

    Why should we care and why should we bother doing anything about it?
    I spend three months a year teaching at the Naval Postgraduate School in Monterey, CA. My apartment there is about a hundred yards from a public beach. There are elegant wooden boardwalks so that one can cross from the roadway to the beach without disturbing the dunes. At strategic places on the boardwalk there are trash containers, plastic bags, and plastic gloves. The message is that those who enjoy the beach should leave it a little cleaner than they found it. Besides, bending over and picking up adds good exercise to a walk on the beach.
  9. #489  
    Quote Originally Posted by whmurray
    I spend three months a year teaching at the Naval Postgraduate School in Monterey, CA. My apartment there is about a hundred yards from a public beach. There are elegant wooden boardwalks so that one can cross from the roadway to the beach without disturbing the dunes. At strategic places on the boardwalk there are trash containers, plastic bags, and plastic gloves. The message is that those who enjoy the beach should leave it a little cleaner than they found it. Besides, bending over and picking up adds good exercise to a walk on the beach.
    I know where you mean as I used to go there often. In the early 90's I lived on Spencer Street a few blocks away from the old DLI.

    Your explanation involves cleaning up after others as it's the nice thing to do. These measures do nothing to stop those who leave the trash around to begin with. Do we accept that trash (or warmer environment) is just always going to be there so we should just concentrate on cleaning up rather than preventing it? Will the focus on the clean up help motivate the litterers?
    Recognizing that I volunteered...
  10. #490  
    Quote Originally Posted by AlaskanDad
    I know where you mean as I used to go there often. In the early 90's I lived on Spencer Street a few blocks away from the old DLI.

    Your explanation involves cleaning up after others as it's the nice thing to do. These measures do nothing to stop those who leave the trash around to begin with. Do we accept that trash (or warmer environment) is just always going to be there so we should just concentrate on cleaning up rather than preventing it? Will the focus on the clean up help motivate the litterers?
    I am not so much cleaning up after others as cooperating with others in keeping our space clean. For all I know, across my seventy years, I am a net-litterer. I cannot control what others do. It is all I can do to keep my behavior consistent with my values.

    When I am home in Connecticut, I often walk the half mile from my house to the local Starbucks. I took my lesson from Monterey with me. When I take my walk I take two plastic bags, one IN my left hand and one ON my right. I police my half mile. Recently I met a lady at the Starbucks trash barrel with her two bags and the litter from her half mile. I can guarantee you that we are both more careful not to litter now than we were before we took on our half miles.

    Kant says that ethical behavior is that which you would have everyone else do.
  11. #491  
    Quote Originally Posted by AlaskanDad
    Let's get past the finger pointing and get straight to the results. I'll just list what are currently debated as facts:

    FACTS
    1. The world is getting warmer
    2. Humans are responsible
    3. There is nothing we can do right now (even if every breathing human participated) to show ANY effect within the next 50 years
    4. Any efforts would only show their effects after 50 years

    Big question (for discussion purposes only, doesn't reflect my own views):
    So what?

    Why should we care and why should we bother doing anything about it?
    facts 1 and 2 are conclusive facts. They are not part of some political tug of war, calling them finger pointing is not going to make them any less true.

    "facts" 3 and 4 are not even facts, just speculations

    but even if they were true, and I am not covinced they are, I am puzzled by your "so what" attitude.

    Are we so selfish that we only think of ourselves not our children?
    Last edited by cellmatrix; 08/24/2005 at 11:54 AM.
  12. #492  
    Quote Originally Posted by whmurray
    I spend three months a year teaching at the Naval Postgraduate School in Monterey, CA. My apartment there is about a hundred yards from a public beach. There are elegant wooden boardwalks so that one can cross from the roadway to the beach without disturbing the dunes. At strategic places on the boardwalk there are trash containers, plastic bags, and plastic gloves. The message is that those who enjoy the beach should leave it a little cleaner than they found it. Besides, bending over and picking up adds good exercise to a walk on the beach.
    Murray, you live in a wonderul area, I spent 2 and a half years in the army there at Ft. Ord and still enjoy going back sometimes, especially Asilomar that also has those boardwalks.
  13. #493  
    Quote Originally Posted by cellmatrix
    facts 1 and 2 are conclusive facts. They are not part of some political tug of war, calling them finger pointing is not going to make them any less true.

    "facts" 3 and 4 are not even facts, just speculations

    but even if they were true, and I am not covinced they are, I am puzzled by your "so what" attitude.

    Are we so selfish that we only think of ourselves not our children?
    That's why I pointed out that these are debatable (because they ARE being debated) and was just CALLING all of these "facts". I wanted to establish a baseline, not get into the basis for the discussion.

    I also pointed out that "So What?" is not an attitude (or MY attitude for that matter) but a question. "Why should we care and why should we bother doing anything about it?" are valid quesitons for discussion not attitudes. Don't get upset because I ask questions, I'm not saying we shouldn't care. I wanted to discuss why we should.

    On another note, when were you at Ft. Ord and with whom? I was with 5-21 Inf '92-'93.
    Recognizing that I volunteered...
  14. #494  
    You are mixing legitimate facts with speculations and then trying to lump them together and say they all are equally plausible. Jumping in to try to clarify this is not upsetting at all to me, no problem. I enjoy trying to help out.

    Also, it is great to meet another Ft Ord Infantry person, I was a medic in the 629 Medical company, part of 7th Infantry, '78-80, and even though we were medics, we did everything infantry did, and set up our MASH units as well. It was great, but I enjoy civilian life more now.
  15. #495  
    I wasn't trying to say anything about the "facts" I presented. You'll not find anywhere where I said they were equally plausible or even accurate. I wanted to get past the "facts" discussion and talk about the ramifications.

    What are we going to do? Why should we bother? What is the right thing to do?

    Your EFMB was some tough stuff. I dip my EIB hat to you.
    Recognizing that I volunteered...
  16. #496  
    Quote Originally Posted by cellmatrix
    Murray, you live in a wonderul area, I spent 2 and a half years in the army there at Ft. Ord and still enjoy going back sometimes, especially Asilomar that also has those boardwalks.
    Actually, I live in two; New Canaan is not bad either.

    Fort Ord is "closed." As with many of the bases that have been BRACed, it is being very successfully redeveloped. There is a political move for "low-cost" housing but there can be no such thing in an area where values are increasing at 30% a year.
  17. #497  
    Quote Originally Posted by AlaskanDad
    Why should we bother?
    Here's an idea from the last couple of days from where I live: Flood



    It was the worst rainfall in Switzerland since 1869. The damage is massive and widespread. That only 8 people were killed was luck. Statistically, an event like this is expected once every 300 years. The problem is, the last massive "flood of the century" took place only 14 years ago. An increase of extreme weather conditions is predicted by climatologists as the result of global warming. Higher temperature means more energy and more water in the atmosphere, leading to stronger rain in some areas. Changes in the global circulaton may also cause some regions to dry out. E.g. Spain and Portugal, where forest fires have never been as bad as this year, while Eastern Europe was drowning in rain.

    Here's another example from India, a bit earlier this year. The the highest recorded rainfall in India, hundreds killed.

    A changing climate is bad for most if not all, because we (e.g. our agricultural systems) are adapted to the present conditions, changes mean problems, sometimes massive problems, specially for those who can barely survive presently.

    What can you do? First, you could start accepting the idea that there MAY be a problem. All but one Western country have signed the Kyoto protocol, only the worst polluter refrained from that simple step which doesn't even have far-reaching consequences (guess who). Then you can start working on solutions. Why not start developing new types of cars which don't waste that much energy (90 % of the energy in a combustion engine is wasted as heat)? Why not start projects in that field instead trying to fly to Mars?

    Think of it, you would not be so desperately dependent on oil from the Middle East or from Venezuela. Maybe your president would not even have to walk hand-in-hand with a Saudi prince on his ranch any more.
    Last edited by clulup; 08/24/2005 at 02:51 PM.
    “Reality is that which, when you stop believing in it, doesn't go away.” (Philip K. ****)
  18. #498  
    Quote Originally Posted by clulup
    ...All but one Western country have signed the Kyoto protocol, only the worst polluter refrained from that simple step which doesn't even have far-reaching consequences (guess who)....
    Get over it and move on
    Well behaved women rarely make history
  19. #499  
    Quote Originally Posted by clulup
    Here's an idea from the last couple of days from where I live: Flood


    So which one is your house?
    MaxiMunK.com The Forum That Asks, "Are You Not Entertained?"

    Remember: "Anyone that thinks the Treo should just work right out of the box, shouldn't own a Treo..."
  20. #500  
    Quote Originally Posted by AlaskanDad
    I wasn't trying to say anything about the "facts" I presented. You'll not find anywhere where I said they were equally plausible or even accurate. I wanted to get past the "facts" discussion and talk about the ramifications.

    What are we going to do? Why should we bother? What is the right thing to do?

    Your EFMB was some tough stuff. I dip my EIB hat to you.
    Thanks, but the EIB that is a major accomplishment for sure, I think it is the most highly prized peacetime award for the infantry soldier.

    Anyway, I agree that the questions you list above are the ones we should be asking.

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