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  1. #261  
    Quote Originally Posted by Advance The Man
    Manmade causes are inconsequential, they do not have enough impact to warrant trillions of dollars toward preventing them. Now if your really wanted to slow it down, you could build huge corks to cover up all the volcanoes in the world.
    Volcanos contribute to COOLING, not warming, due to aerosols and ashes which reflect sunligh back into space. Volcanoes do not emit greenhouse gasses at significant rates.

    That manmade causes are inconsequential is your private view. The majority of US and international experts in the field say the opposite of what you say. You MAY be right, it just seems much, much more likely to me that the leading scientists, who study such questions in a professional way, are right. Why are you so sure you are right and they are wrong?

    It seems to me you must consider those scientists a bunch of incompetent fools, given they spend all that time and money on the question of global warming, and yet they reach the wrong conclusions, while you know better?
    “Reality is that which, when you stop believing in it, doesn't go away.” (Philip K. ****)
  2. #262  
    Quote Originally Posted by clairegrrl
    Joe Bear...kick back, light up another pack and relax.
    Now I see why you have almost 3000 posts.
  3.    #263  
    "Remember the Ice Age!"

    If not for global warming, that's where we'd be right now...
  4. #264  
    Quote Originally Posted by Joebar
    Now I see why you have almost 3000 posts.
    Yes...it is the quality of my posts that make them unique. Others may be satisified just to blast away, or hear themselves drone on and on. Not me. Thanks for noticing
    Well behaved women rarely make history
  5. #265  
    so much for returning to civil discussion, eh? looks like joebar leads the way back into the element we are trying to get out of before. nice work, joebar. you are clearly above all that
  6. #266  
    calm down 213.. You just love battles...... I said nothing inflammatory.
  7. #267  
    Quote Originally Posted by Advance The Man
    "Remember the Ice Age!"

    If not for global warming, that's where we'd be right now...
    I liked that Bush parody -- I cant wait for Long Island to feel like Honolulu year round.. Will get much more use of our local beaches..
  8.    #268  
    Re-posting again in hopes all will read and go to this guy's site - it's funny....

    Here's some levity to this thread...Bush's take on global warming. I've never heard of this guy, but read a story today on his main page that he states, "Bush was eating doritos, giggling to himself and then listening to an ipod during Chirac's speach". He's joking, but very humurous stuff at his website. Check out Bush's take on global warming.

    2 more funny quotes from Borowitz.com...
    President Bush departed from his remarks on global warming to comment on the current situation in Syria, calling for “the immediate withdrawal of all foreign troops in the Middle East except for the ones I put there.”

    Elsewhere, prosecutors in Santa Maria, California, questioned how Michael Jackson could be suffering from “flu-like symptoms” when he does not have a nose.

    Quote Originally Posted by Joebar
    I liked that Bush parody -- I cant wait for Long Island to feel like Honolulu year round.. Will get much more use of our local beaches..
  9. #269  
    “A lot of folks think they can't do much to produce greenhouse gasses, but that's just not true,” Mr. Bush said. “Every little bit helps.”

  10.    #270  
    Okay, I researched the link cellmatrix provided at the end of this post. The article is by Naomi Oreskes a University of California SD scientist. She is undoubtedly not on the fence regarding this subject. She sides that global warming is mostly caused by man. I emailed her of our discussion earlier today. She replied. I certainly don't present this to defend my view, because it doesn't defend it, it defy's it. I'll chew on it and read some more. I recently found a website that debunks global warming as a myth (scientists are debunking). Here's a copy with my email to her and then her response to me (minus my name and email address)...

    On Feb 23, 2005, at 9:51 AM, Advance The Man (name changed) wrote:

    > I saw an article with your name and googled for you
    > email. What percentage is man to blame for global
    > warming? Is there any way to have a guesstimate?
    >
    > I'm in a discussion with friends and everyone agrees
    > that global warming exists, but no one has the answer
    > to this question.
    >
    > Thanks, Advance The Man

    > __________________________________
    > Do you Yahoo!?
    > Yahoo! Mail - You care about security. So do we.
    > http://promotions.yahoo.com/new_mail

    Dear Advance The Man (name changed)

    This is a good question and one of the real uncertainties in climate
    science. There is simply no way to prove how much variability is
    natural and how much is man-made. But we do have some guidelines. For
    example, if warming were caused by an increase in solar radiation, that
    would be detectable, in theory, by a temperature increase in the upper
    stratosphere. The problem is that it is very difficult to measure T in
    the stratosphere, and changing ozone levels also affect T. Scientists
    are working on this, but don't yet have an answer.

    Another way is to look at historical temperature records and see how
    the present compares. There has been a huge argument over this in the
    scientific literature. One needs to be careful and not over state the
    case in either direction. Most scientists say that there is quite a
    bit of natural variability--easily 0.5-1.0 C ups and downs over the
    past 1000 years--so 0.7 C change we've seen in the last 150 years,
    where we have very good records, could, in theory, be within the range
    of natural variability. However the ABSOLUTE temperatures we have seen
    in the past 20 years appear to be unprecendented. That is to say, it
    has never, or perhaps only very rarely, ever been this hot. This makes
    it best to say that while it is possible that this could be natural
    variation, it is most likely that it is not.

    Third, we have theoretical grounds to expect increases based on human
    activities: simply, that CO2 is a greenhouse gas and it has increased
    about 30% since the industrial revolution. So science predicts that we
    should see a warming based on human activities, and indeed, we do see
    it. Theory, and prediction, basic scientific stuff.

    Finally there is the issue of what would have happened had we not added
    all this CO2. natural variability cuts both ways--it can get warmer
    but it can also get colder. Can we tell which it would have been had
    we not burned all these fossils fuels? No one knows for sure, but most
    geologists think that we were , in fact, heading toward the next ice
    age before we started burning fossil fuels. If this is the case, than
    the actual effect is more than 0.;7 c. That is, if it would have
    cooled, let's just say, 0.3 C naturally, and we see a warming of 0.7,
    then the effect of humans is + 1.0

    Hope this helps!

    All best,
    Naomi O.

    Quote Originally Posted by cellmatrix
    Personalities aside, the article which clulup contributed really is relevant to this conversation.

    It was published two months ago in the top science journal in the world and relects the findings and views of the leading climate scientists in the world.

    These climate scientists are convinced by the available data on 928 articles published on the subject that man-made causes significantly impact global warming.

    But also you can look at the literature yourself, like I said before, do a scholar.google.com search with "causes of global climate change" and pull the abstracts of the articles in the top journals that come up in the search and see what they say.

    I am not trying to beat a dead horse here, but I have not seen anything else in this thread which convinces me otherwise. If you have any more data which refute this, please let me know. Otherwise, I'm outta this thread.

    http://www.sciencemag.org/cgi/conten.../306/5702/1686
  11. #271  
    way to go, advance! I applaud you in taking the initiative as you have here! cheers!
  12. #272  
    hey advance, nice work there! I am trying to read this on my treo but will chew on it more when I can get some free time at the computer. I have to say this has been an interesting thread and informative experience
  13. #273  
    OK, reading more, her letter echos her article and the likelihood that global warming is being advanced by man made causes. I would not bet anything more than a dollar (certainly not the future of the world) on the slim chance that all of global warming is naturally occurring. That is my take on the letter. The part about us heading for an ice age is very interesting.

    I did find an article which suggests that natural causes could play a role larger than we previously suspected. Well maybe not more than you suspected . Probably you will find this article interesting, I am not sure if it is a propriatary article or not, but let me know if you have trouble accessing it.

    http://www.nature.com/cgi-taf/DynaPa...23681a_fs.html
    Last edited by cellmatrix; 02/23/2005 at 05:25 PM.
  14. #274  
    Quote Originally Posted by cellmatrix
    I did find an article which suggests that natural causes could play a role larger than we previously suspected. Well maybe not more than you suspected . Probably you will find this article interesting, I am not sure if it is a propriatary article or not, but let me know if you have trouble accessing it.

    http://www.nature.com/cgi-taf/DynaPa...23681a_fs.html
    Seems to be member only...

    At any rate this is why differing opinions are important. As I said earlier, no one can say what will happen in the future. You can cite sources, I can cite sources, but I don't think you can really get an unbiased consensus on anything. I only say that because, even scientists have bias. If you go into a study thinking one way, your focus will probably lead you in that direction. Little things that may be insignificant on the other side may jump at you as the "smoking gun".

    Do I know the Global Warming crowd are wrong? No. However, I also know science is not always final. As I said earlier, there was time Global Cooling was thought to be occurring. Now, with more data and tech, it's Global Warming. Who's to say which way the wind will blow 40 years from now. It may shift back to cooling.

    There was a time when lobotomies were routinely performed. This was sound practice at the time, but barbaric now. Man constantly evolves. What may seem sound today may not be the case in the future.

    Given the fact that I can look at historical data of weather patterns from before man walked the planet, I know cycles have occurred. This is a large part of my rejection of man-made global warming. No, I'm not a scientist. I spent one year at a University studying Poli-Sci, and the next nine years jumping from airplanes and helicoptors. I never claimed to know better than any scientist. These are just my personal views.
    Last edited by Insertion; 02/24/2005 at 02:57 AM.
    MaxiMunK.com The Forum That Asks, "Are You Not Entertained?"

    Remember: "Anyone that thinks the Treo should just work right out of the box, shouldn't own a Treo..."
  15. #275  
    Quote Originally Posted by cellmatrix
    if you have a treo, regardless of your political beliefs, how can you not be cool?
    I dunno, shall we get into the Sprint/VZW/Cingular/T-Mo discussion??
    MaxiMunK.com The Forum That Asks, "Are You Not Entertained?"

    Remember: "Anyone that thinks the Treo should just work right out of the box, shouldn't own a Treo..."
  16. #276  
    Quote Originally Posted by clairegrrl
    Yes...it is the quality of my posts that make them unique. Others may be satisified just to blast away, or hear themselves drone on and on. Not me. Thanks for noticing
    I know I can't get out of bed without my Claire fix everyday.
    MaxiMunK.com The Forum That Asks, "Are You Not Entertained?"

    Remember: "Anyone that thinks the Treo should just work right out of the box, shouldn't own a Treo..."
  17. #277  
    Quote Originally Posted by Insertion
    I know I can't get out of bed without my Claire fix everyday.
    Well behaved women rarely make history
  18. #278  
    "the natural causes exist but we cannot do anything about them. It is the man-made causes which we can impact. So it makes sense to address them in a pragmatic way. "
    I agree with this.
  19. #279  
    Quote Originally Posted by Insertion

    There was a time when lobotomies were routinely performed. This was sound practice at the time, but barbaric now. Man constantly evolves. What may seem sound today may not be the case in the future.
    Well even though lobotomies were performed a long time ago, if I need brain surgery tomorrow, I am going to the neurosurgeon for help, and I bet you would too.

    Quote Originally Posted by Insertion
    Given the fact that I can look at historical data of weather patterns from before man walked the planet, I know cycles have occurred. This is a large part of my rejection of man-made global warming. No, I'm not a scientist. I spent one year at a University studying Poli-Sci, and the next nine years jumping from airplanes and helicoptors. I never claimed to know better than any scientist. These are just my personal views.
    Why do you think scientists are biased in the area of global warmining? It seems to me that the idea that hundreds of the leading scientists publishing false data, risking their reputations, in an effort to promote the agenda of a left-wing political conspiracy, well to me it seems far fetched.
  20. #280  
    Quote Originally Posted by cellmatrix
    Why do you think scientists are biased in the area of global warmining? It seems to me that the idea that hundreds of the leading scientists publishing false data, risking their reputations, in an effort to promote the agenda of a left-wing political conspiracy, well to me it seems far fetched.
    Whoa...I never said anything about a left-wing political conspiracy. Slow down there CM! When I say bias, I mean in general, not a political bias. If you think there is Global Warming, (with nothing to do with any political agenda), and you wanted to do experiments to prove this, you would tend to be looking in that direction to begin with.

    I am talking about a normal bias towards one thing or another that we all have. This has nothing to do with any Leftist agenda, just the personal beliefs of those scientists.
    MaxiMunK.com The Forum That Asks, "Are You Not Entertained?"

    Remember: "Anyone that thinks the Treo should just work right out of the box, shouldn't own a Treo..."

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