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  1. #221  
    Quote Originally Posted by Insertion
    Stop trying so hard to convince me of something I have doubts on. You act as though the balance of humanity hinges on my acceptance of your stance. It does not. I understand your point of view. I accept it. I also disagree with it. Can you not accept that? Why must your opinion be law?

    This has become absurd now. I don't mind debates, but it is apparent that you can not accept my view point. You surely need not agree with them, but why you can't come to terms that my views on this are different than yours is beyond me.
    Insert Here...by now you know the way poor clulup is. I dont know why, so I will offer this from his countryman. It may prove helpful to him.

    "In a direct democracy," as Hansjoerg Seiler, law professor at the University of Lucerne, explains, "all people have equal rights and therefore all opinions are of the same value. There are no 'right' or 'wrong' opinions, but simply different opinions."

    Since clulup has a problem with that concept, is he a "bad" citizen??
    Well behaved women rarely make history
  2. #222  
    excellent, clairegrrl
  3. #223  
    Quote Originally Posted by clairegrrl
    Insert Here...by now you know the way poor clulup is. I dont know why, so I will offer this from his countryman. It may prove helpful to him.

    "In a direct democracy," as Hansjoerg Seiler, law professor at the University of Lucerne, explains, "all people have equal rights and therefore all opinions are of the same value. There are no 'right' or 'wrong' opinions, but simply different opinions."

    Since clulup has a problem with that concept, is he a "bad" citizen??
    Bah!!! Irrelevant! This is coming from a teenage Jeeper!
    MaxiMunK.com The Forum That Asks, "Are You Not Entertained?"

    Remember: "Anyone that thinks the Treo should just work right out of the box, shouldn't own a Treo..."
  4. #224  
    Quote Originally Posted by clairegrrl
    "In a direct democracy," as Hansjoerg Seiler, law professor at the University of Lucerne, explains, "all people have equal rights and therefore all opinions are of the same value. There are no 'right' or 'wrong' opinions, but simply different opinions."
    I don't know Mr. Seiler, nor do I care whether he is my compatriot, but that aside: his statement doesn't make much sense, does it? You don't really believe "all opinions are of the same value", do you?

    What about the opinion that gays should be killed, as once expressed in this forum? What about the opinion that women or blacks should not be allowed to vote? There are millions of opinions that are of very low value to almost everybody, also in a democracy, so let's not pretend there is "no right or wrong", as you suggest through Mr. Seiler.
    Last edited by clulup; 02/23/2005 at 03:01 AM.
    “Reality is that which, when you stop believing in it, doesn't go away.” (Philip K. ****)
  5. #225  
    Quote Originally Posted by clulup
    What about the opinion that gays should be killed, as once expressed in this formum?
    Egads! I missed out on that one. Who said this? Actually, maybe I don't want to know.
    MaxiMunK.com The Forum That Asks, "Are You Not Entertained?"

    Remember: "Anyone that thinks the Treo should just work right out of the box, shouldn't own a Treo..."
  6. #226  
    Quote Originally Posted by treobk214
    Dr Solanki said that the brighter Sun and higher levels of "greenhouse gases", such as carbon dioxide, both contributed to the change in the Earth's temperature but it was impossible to say which had the greater impact."

    ^^^ what is so difficult for you to understand here, clulup? ^^^

    why are you so quick to discount an article such as this?
    I didn't discount the article, what makes you think I did? My comment to this was "Also an interesting article. Clearly, the activity of the sun plays some role, too, good science involved."

    Then I went on with a quote in which Solanki himself stated that greenhouse gasses "are probably far more important in controlling the Earth's temperature". What could be wrong or arrogant about that?
    Quote Originally Posted by treobk214
    ...the burning of fossil fuels has begun to dominate the natural causes, i am not debating that, but how can you rationally discount the role of the sun in this, considering the enormous energy output produced from it?!!
    As you can see from my quote above, I never disputed in the slightest way the fact that changes in the activity of the sun also play a role in changing the climate of earth.

    I also never, ever claimed that climate changes, neither past ones nor the one happening presently, are solely the result of human activities...

    However, what seems more important to me is that you, too, now admit that burning fossil fuels is the dominating factor in the global warming taking place presently.
    “Reality is that which, when you stop believing in it, doesn't go away.” (Philip K. ****)
  7. #227  
    Quote Originally Posted by Insertion
    I don't mind debates, but it is apparent that you can not accept my view point. You surely need not agree with them, but why you can't come to terms that my views on this are different than yours is beyond me.
    I don't mind if you have a different opinion. But in order to maintain your opinion in this case, you have to state that the majority of scientists in a field you (and I) are not experts in, are wrong, while you are right. What I would like to understand is, how do you get to that conclusion?
    “Reality is that which, when you stop believing in it, doesn't go away.” (Philip K. ****)
  8. #228  
    Quote Originally Posted by Advance The Man
    Man is a miniscule variable as the cause.
    That's your private opinion, the majority of experts in the field think otherwise. Of course everybody is entitled to have his own opinion, but still, I wonder why you know better than them.

    The reason not to do anything to counter man's 'share' is the cost. The cost could force factories to change or even close. Goods would be in short supply or cost prohibitive to the masses. To avert this taxpayers would have to foot the bill for something that isn't necessary. The result would be inconsequential.
    I think what you miss is the potentially enormous costs of global warming. Last year, Bush promised US$13 billion to Florida in order to help cover the costs for the surprisingly large number of hurricanes... What if you will have to spend that much taxpayer's money every year, or even worse?

    How about todays news?
    LOS ANGELES, California (AP) -- Californians are braced for even more rain as they struggle to recover from storms that have left at least nine people dead, triggered mudslides and tornadoes, and washed away roads and runways.

    Of course one cannot say that this is due to global warming, but it is precisely what will increase in frequency with more global warming.

    Here's a report by the world's second largest Reinsurance company. Yeah, it's Swiss, so you can say its just phony nonsense, but believe me, Swiss Re is a totally capitalistic company.

    They are also not alone and whether the US companies who don't care are more clever than others will be seen in the future.

    Fact is that both insurance premiums and monetary losses due to storm and flood damages are rising.
    “Reality is that which, when you stop believing in it, doesn't go away.” (Philip K. ****)
  9.    #229  
    clulup, I live in Florida and have for four decades. Hurricanes have nothing to do with Global Warming. Also why is Afghanistan having one there coldest winters on record?

    Cellmatrix, I've done a search and read every response here and many of their attachments to different articles. My opinion, my conclusion is global warming or cooling is caused by natural events, not man.
  10. #230  
    Quote Originally Posted by Advance The Man
    clulup, I live in Florida and have for four decades. Hurricanes have nothing to do with Global Warming. Also why is Afghanistan having one there coldest winters on record?
    I respect you opinion, but once again I note that people who (as far as I can tell), know much more about this subject than you and me, don't agree with you:

    Kevin Trenberth (CGD) says that although it’s controversial, he thinks that global warming is in fact creating conditions that are favorable for hurricanes to be more severe. “Global climate change, and global warming in particular, create a different background environment in which the hurricanes are working,” he says. “The sea surface temperatures are a little warmer, the whole environment is a bit wetter, there’s more humidity, and that’s the main fuel for hurricanes.”

    Bob Gall, former MMM director and current lead scientist of the U.S. Weather Research Program, is less certain that global warming is fueling more severe hurricanes, for now at least. He says that at this point there is no evidence linking global warming to hurricanes. “Changes due to global warming, so far as I see it, are pretty small,” he says. “That doesn’t mean we aren’t on an upward trend, and I think we are, but I don’t know if the trend has been significant enough to provide a clear signal that anthropogenic warming is causing it.”


    http://www.ucar.edu/communications/s...hurricane.html


    Regarding cold winter in Afghanistan: Global warming leads more engery stored in the atmosphere. As scientists predict, this leads to more extreme weather conditions. It is well possible that this results in colder conditions in some places.
    Last edited by clulup; 02/23/2005 at 06:25 AM.
    “Reality is that which, when you stop believing in it, doesn't go away.” (Philip K. ****)
  11.    #231  
    global warming has been around for 4 billion years
  12. #232  
    Quote Originally Posted by clulup
    I don't know Mr. Seiler, nor do I care whether he is my compatriot, but that aside: his statement doesn't make much sense, does it? You don't really believe "all opinions are of the same value", do you?

    What about the opinion that gays should be killed, as once expressed in this forum? What about the opinion that women or blacks should not be allowed to vote? There are millions of opinions that are of very low value to almost everybody, also in a democracy, so let's not pretend there is "no right or wrong", as you suggest through Mr. Seiler.
    I certainly cant speak for "your" guy, but he seems to be in the mainstream in your country. Now perhaps you shouldnt be painted with this broad brush, but it certainly appears that what the professor is saying is accepted by the Swiss citizenry.

    As far as what I believe, I asked you the question. You use this tactic all the time. Clulup, answer the question. In the US, we have protected speech, under the 1st Amendment of our Constitution. It appears, however, that you dont subscribe to those principals and only concepts that you approve, or that have been proven to your satisfaction are acceptable.

    You are quick to judge others that do not agree with you. Whether it's the US, it's President, or it's policies. What about the ethnic, cultural and religious oppression of minorities in your country that I have been reading about lately. Are you as vocal against your governments policies regarding this issue as you are about American policies? It has been said that Switzerland is the center of contemporary racism. "93% of children from mixed families going through divorce or separation are given to the custody of the Swiss-German parent, to be alienated from the other parent and their culture, germanized and aryanized. This way the Swiss-Germans eliminate all ethnic minorities.

    As a rule the only children of the mixed marriages which are not assigned to the Swiss-German parent, are those with physical or mental handicaps. This way the Swiss-German courts and Regime violate not only the Genocide convention but also practice Eugenics at the expense of the minorities, inclusive the French and Italian speaking Swiss citizens."

    Do you have an opinion on this? Is this true?
    Last edited by clairegrrl; 02/23/2005 at 07:20 AM.
    Well behaved women rarely make history
  13. #233  
    Quote Originally Posted by clulup
    Last year, Bush promised US$13 billion to Florida in order to help cover the costs for the surprisingly large number of hurricanes... What if you will have to spend that much taxpayer's money every year, or even worse?
    There would probably have been less money on a per capita basis to spend for the tsunami relief.
    Well behaved women rarely make history
  14. #234  
    Quote Originally Posted by Advance The Man
    Cellmatrix, I've done a search and read every response here and many of their attachments to different articles. My opinion, my conclusion is global warming or cooling is caused by natural events, not man.
    Advance, I enjoy listening to yours and everyone else's opinions on this, but when it comes to believing things that could have an important effect on my life, I tend to trust good science.
  15.    #235  
    CM, you either respect other people's opinions or you don't. You imply you do, but keep questioning my opinion. It's just that, my opinion. I'm college educated, read a lot, and this is what I've concluded.

    Quote Originally Posted by cellmatrix
    Advance, I enjoy listening to yours and everyone else's opinions on this, but when it comes to believing things that could have an important effect on my life, I tend to trust good science.
  16. #236  
    Quote Originally Posted by clairegrrl
    As far as what I believe, I asked you the question. You use this tactic all the time. Clulup, answer the question. In the US, we have protected speech, under the 1st Amendment of our Constitution. It appears, however, that you dont subscribe to those principals and only concepts that you approve, or that have been proven to your satisfaction are acceptable.
    Hey, Clairegrrl, last time you said most of my post border the absurd, and then you failed to show one single expample.

    Now you accuse me of being against free speech... When did I ever oppose free speech? Did I ever ask a poster to stop posting, or to have somebody's post censored? Please, show me where I said anything of that sort...

    Regarding Swiss policies, I can assure you we have freedom of speech, too. The only restriction I know of is that it is not allowed to publicly spread racist hate.

    You mentioned a question I did not answer... what do you mean?
    Quote Originally Posted by clairegrrl
    What about the ethnic, cultural and religious oppression of minorities in your country that I have been reading about lately. Are you as vocal against your governments policies regarding this issue as you are about American policies? It has been said that Switzerland is the center of contemporary racism. "93% of children from mixed families going through divorce or separation are given to the custody of the Swiss-German parent, to be alienated from the other parent and their culture, germanized and aryanized. This way the Swiss-Germans eliminate all ethnic minorities.

    As a rule the only children of the mixed marriages which are not assigned to the Swiss-German parent, are those with physical or mental handicaps. This way the Swiss-German courts and Regime violate not only the Genocide convention but also practice Eugenics at the expense of the minorities, inclusive the French and Italian speaking Swiss citizens."

    Do you have an opinion on this? Is this true?
    Frankly, this is total nonsense. I note that you preferred not to mention the source. Maybe because you did not feel comfortable about it yourself?

    You can tell that the story is total bogus from the fact that Swiss-Germans are described as the majority which tries to eliminate the French and Italian speaking minorities.

    In reality, Swiss-Germans are only the majority in the Swiss-German part (which simply happens to be larger than the other parts), while the French and Italian speaking are the majority in the other parts. So the authorities who judge the alledged "cases" described will be French speaking in the French part and Italian speaking in the Italian part. It would be like saying kids from Texans are taken away from the Texan part of a couple because they are a minority in the US... silly, no?

    Where did you find this? I have never, ever heard of an accusation pointing in this direction, so you must have spent quite some time to find this totally isolated, weird story on the internet? Can you reveal the source, or you prefer not to?
    “Reality is that which, when you stop believing in it, doesn't go away.” (Philip K. ****)
  17. #237  
    Quote Originally Posted by Advance The Man
    CM, you either respect other people's opinions or you don't. You imply you do, but keep questioning my opinion. It's just that, my opinion. I'm college educated, read a lot, and this is what I've concluded.
    Its not about our opinions, it is about what the facts are and how we arrived at our conclusions. To answer a scientific question, we need to gather all the data we can, question and test the validity of it, and then try to form the best model to fit the available information. I am just trying to understand how you arrived at your conclusions.
  18. #238  
    Quote Originally Posted by clulup
    I don't mind if you have a different opinion. But in order to maintain your opinion in this case, you have to state that the majority of scientists in a field you (and I) are not experts in, are wrong, while you are right. What I would like to understand is, how do you get to that conclusion?
    I think you're argueing just to argue now. I want to ask a genuine question, which you do not have to answer. Is English your primary language? Do you know the definition of "Opinion"?

    1 a : a view, judgment, or appraisal formed in the mind about a particular matter
    2 a : belief stronger than impression and less strong than positive knowledge
    b : a generally held view

    Once again, my OPINIONS are views and judgements. It has rained over 30 inches here in Los Angeles this season. If I wanted to look out the window and say "Bah, it's cold and rainy, there is no warming going on", do you know what? That would be my opinion.

    I believe OJ Simpson butchered his ex-wife and her friend. I was not at the scene during the killing, but it is my OPINION that he is a murderer.

    I have the OPINION you are a condescending arguementitive man. I may be totally wrong, I have no hard facts to back this up. But again, this would be my OPINION. (And believe it or not Clu, I would like to be proved wrong on that - not that you probably care...)

    How many more times must we split this hair? I have my opinion, you have yours.

    For the last time, climatic changes have always occured. They will continue to do so. Man does not need to be here for this to happen. Man may contribute. But how much? This I do not know. But since you think this is a rock solid theory, what will the average temperature be in ten, twenty, thirty years? I want a precise number please. If nothing at all changes, what will the average temperature of Terra Firma be Feb 23...2015? If we cut greenhouse gasses, by say 10%, what will the temperature be? I am asking for a precise number. I don't want to hear "Scientisists say average temperatures may rise by 5 degrees," as this is an OPINION. Give me an exact number.
    Last edited by Insertion; 02/23/2005 at 08:39 AM.
    MaxiMunK.com The Forum That Asks, "Are You Not Entertained?"

    Remember: "Anyone that thinks the Treo should just work right out of the box, shouldn't own a Treo..."
  19.    #239  
    I'm not out to convince you on either side. We all have our opinions, not many people change their minds. My opinion is global warming is a natural occuring event and it has been around for over 4 billion years. I came to this conclusion by reading many articles online and several links provided in this thread. Please read all of them and come to your own conclusion.

    Quote Originally Posted by cellmatrix
    Its not about our opinions, it is about what the facts are and how we arrived at our conclusions. To answer a scientific question, we need to gather all the data we can, question and test the validity of it, and then try to form the best model to fit the available information. I am just trying to understand how you arrived at your conclusions.
  20. #240  
    Quote Originally Posted by clulup
    In reality, Swiss-Germans are only the majority in the Swiss-German part (which simply happens to be larger than the other parts), while the French and Italian speaking are the majority in the other parts. So the authorities who judge the alledged "cases" described will be French speaking in the French part and Italian speaking in the Italian part....
    Where did you find this? I have never, ever heard of an accusation pointing in this direction, so you must have spent quite some time to find this totally isolated, weird story on the internet? Can you reveal the source, or you prefer not to?
    It all sounds like it could be in the relm of possibility. Just because you say it isnt so doesnt make it false. Besides, your actions show otherwise. maybe it's just a cultural misunderstanding. Yeah, that must be it.

    http://www.ombudsmaninternational.com/swiss/

    http://www.fremdenhass.com/
    Well behaved women rarely make history

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