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  1.    #1  
    I'm posting this, not as an intent to start a flame war, but to clarify some things about the Bible that even Christians seem to be confused about.

    The Old Testament was the historical record of the Hebrew people. The laws recorded there-in apply to them. If you want to follow that Law you're welcome to it, but be warned that when you fall short (which you will) you can expect the curse of the Law. Don't expect others to follow it.Christ came to free us from that. It is helpful to know what God considers sinful though, so you can avoid the necessity of repentance

    The New Testament refers to the coming of Jesus Christ who freed mankind from the curse of the Law.

    Jesus (He's the Christ in Christian) cleary states that we should love everyone as He does. Killing someone is not very loving. Everyone (sex, ethnic background, (non)religious preference) is included. That means the unborn baby and the prisoner on death row. You get the drift. No one deserves to die in Christ's eye. His desire is for all to come to redemption, and we are all equal in his eyes. He's very clear on this subject.

    Does that mean Jesus loves gays? Well duh, they would be His children too. Just like babies, pot smoking hippies, greedy money grubbing executives, social security check stealing hoodlums, girl scouts, and anybody else you care to mention. We are all God's childrens. Even clulup.

    BTW clulup those "contradictions" you mentioned, they were different views of the same events. Like that Japanese movie "Rashomon", but with a more upbeat ending.

    Someone also referred to someone spelling God "G-D". Some religions forbid the spelling of His name. It's meant as respect.

    You may not believe in God, Christ, or Buddha, but the people who do deserve the same respect as everyone else.

    oops gotta go, baby threw up in crib
    "I am a debtor both to Greeks and to Barbarians, both to the wise and to the foolish."
  2. #2  
    well said, bobbymike. hope your little one's feeling better
  3.    #3  
    Quote Originally Posted by treobk214
    well said, bobbymike. hope your little one's feeling better
    Thanks, she is. We've just had this nasty throat cold rolling around. She must have been swallowing gunk as she slept and it didn't sit well. She slept better after we got a couple of vaporisers going. She's all perky (still raspy) this morning and is busy directing her brothers around.
    "I am a debtor both to Greeks and to Barbarians, both to the wise and to the foolish."
  4. #4  
    tis the season! just about everybody's fighting off a cough or a stomach flu or sinus situation right now - its incredible! but then maybe in our case its just that fresh new jersey air doing us in over here, who knows? glad to hear she's back into "the director's seat" again. can't keep little whipper snappers down too long!
  5. #5  
    I've got 4 lil gifts right here, right now!
    "Everyday is a Gift, A Blessing, An Opportunity!" - GM

    Phone history: Treo 600, Treo 650, Treo Centro, Pixi, Centro again, 800w, Treo 755p, Palm Pre
  6.    #6  
    Quote Originally Posted by GeekyMom
    I've got 4 lil gifts right here, right now!
    That's us, 3 boys and Charlotte. It makes life interesting!
    "I am a debtor both to Greeks and to Barbarians, both to the wise and to the foolish."
  7. #7  
    Quote Originally Posted by BobbyMike
    I'm posting this, not as an intent to start a flame war, but to clarify some things about the Bible that even Christians seem to be confused about.

    The Old Testament was the historical record of the Hebrew people. The laws recorded there-in apply to them. If you want to follow that Law you're welcome to it, but be warned that when you fall short (which you will) you can expect the curse of the Law. Don't expect others to follow it.Christ came to free us from that. It is helpful to know what God considers sinful though, so you can avoid the necessity of repentance

    The New Testament refers to the coming of Jesus Christ who freed mankind from the curse of the Law.

    Jesus (He's the Christ in Christian) cleary states that we should love everyone as He does. Killing someone is not very loving. Everyone (sex, ethnic background, (non)religious preference) is included. That means the unborn baby and the prisoner on death row. You get the drift. No one deserves to die in Christ's eye. His desire is for all to come to redemption, and we are all equal in his eyes. He's very clear on this subject.

    Does that mean Jesus loves gays? Well duh, they would be His children too. Just like babies, pot smoking hippies, greedy money grubbing executives, social security check stealing hoodlums, girl scouts, and anybody else you care to mention. We are all God's childrens. Even clulup.

    BTW clulup those "contradictions" you mentioned, they were different views of the same events. Like that Japanese movie "Rashomon", but with a more upbeat ending.

    Someone also referred to someone spelling God "G-D". Some religions forbid the spelling of His name. It's meant as respect.

    You may not believe in God, Christ, or Buddha, but the people who do deserve the same respect as everyone else.

    oops gotta go, baby threw up in crib
    Thanks for your post. I wish more people would show the positive attitude you have, regardless of what religion they have (if any). I think what matters most is how somebody acts, not what religion somebody has, whether he believes in a god or not. I think (from what you tell us) that you are doing great things, e.g. with prisoners etc., I respect that a lot, of course regardless of religion. Maybe you only do it to make sure you can go to heaven, but I don't think so. Personally I think it makes sense to do good also without a book telling me why and how, and I think I can compete with most Christians in how "good" my acts are.

    But there are also many other manifestations of religion, many of them negative: very high levels of intolerance towards people who don't share the beliefs, etc.

    For instance, there are people who deny their children blood transfusions because of their literal interpretation of a few lines in the bible, even if it means their children die of something that could be cured otherwise.

    The whole belief in the "literal" meaning or truth of what is written in the bible is something I totally fail to understand. In my view it is simply not possible to assume that the whole bible is true, for the simple reason that the bible contradicts itself in many places. You can find a list here. I have mentioned the last words of Jesus before. There cannot be several differing last words without at least one version being wrong.

    Another example: Whom did they see at the tomb of Jesus?

    MAR 16:5 And entering into the sepulchre, they saw a young man sitting on the right side, clothed in a long white garment; and they were affrighted.

    LUK 24:4 And it came to pass, as they were much perplexed thereabout, behold, two men stood by them in shining garments:

    JOH 20:12 And seeth two angels in white sitting, the one at the head, and the other at the feet, where the body of Jesus had lain.

    MAT 28:4 And for fear of him the keepers did shake, and became as dead men.
    MAT 28:5 And the angel answered and said unto the women, Fear not ye: for I know that ye seek Jesus, which was crucified.

    So what was it? A man, two men, an angel, two angels? There are many examples of that sort. I don't mention this to say that all or the ideas in the bible are wrong (they are not), I just don't think one can claim that all of the bible is literally true, and I also think a literal interpretation of the bible causes a lot of problems, like e.g. the line where killing of homosexuals is mandated (I know YOU don't support this view!).
    “Reality is that which, when you stop believing in it, doesn't go away.” (Philip K. ****)
  8.    #8  
    If you take the Bible as the Word of God, but you don't temper what you read with the Spirit of Christ, it can cause problems.

    Most people don't understand, though, that the latter part of the Bible was written by many different people over a stretch of time. Many of those people did witness, first hand, the sights they transcribed. Being people they no doubt made some small mistakes in the record. It's amazing that they all record the spirit of Jesus and His message in such an accord. The Bible is amazing simply because it exists. No other piece of literature has survived so long. The fact that you could currently go to a store and pick up the Bible in it's original form, and make your own translation is amazing. (BTW, doing so might just knock off a bunch of those "contradictions, many are just the result of poor translation/interpretation).

    For all the evil that has been committed by so called Christians (those that will be astonished no doubt to hear from Jesus, "I knew you not."), far more good has been done. No other movement has inspired so many common people to rise above themselves and serve others as Christianity has. All the wonderful technology we enjoy right now, the prosperity we enjoy right now stands astride blocks built on the foundation of Christ Jesus.

    Being a Christian is a strange, perverse, thing. We follow a God who chose to sacrifice Himself for the creatures He made. He knew (He's all-knowing ) when He made Adam that it would result in a cross on Golgotha for Him, but He went ahead anyway. Because He desired to make creatures in His own image. That means we have the ability to create and destroy, and that we have freewill. He knew we would often choose sin, that's why He offered up Himself in the Body of Christ as a sacrifice so that we had a way out.

    BTW if you spent your first "20 years as a christian" I dare say you never were a Christian. Being Christian doesn't mean you were raised one, or go to a Christian Church. It means you made a conscious choice (freewill) to follow Christ no matter where the road takes you.

    God showed me that He knew who I was on a Paris street when I was fifteen. I didn't become a Christian for over twenty years after that. You could have found me in churches on many Sundays during those years, and I even owned some Bibles, but I wasn't a Christian until I realized the limits of myself and realized I couldn't live a life fufilled without Christ in my heart.

    Jesus Christ has a simple rule for us all. Love the sinner, hate the sin. If you temper what you see of Christianity with that statement it can make more sense.

    Jesus doesn't turn people away from Christianity, we do.
    "I am a debtor both to Greeks and to Barbarians, both to the wise and to the foolish."
  9.    #9  
    BTW clulup, you gotta know I love you. You were one of the only people from the forum that took the time to check up on me and Elizabeth after her bout with cancer. Even if you're not abiding in His love yet, I think you're alright
    "I am a debtor both to Greeks and to Barbarians, both to the wise and to the foolish."
  10. #10  
    Quote Originally Posted by BobbyMike
    Jesus Christ has a simple rule for us all. Love the sinner, hate the sin. If you temper what you see of Christianity with that statement it can make more sense.
    I can totally subscribe to that and try to act accordingly. Again, it would be great if more people would act like you. I am not sure though more Christians (in the sense of people who are religious and call themselves Christians) than atheists follow that guideline.
    “Reality is that which, when you stop believing in it, doesn't go away.” (Philip K. ****)
  11. #11  
    Quote Originally Posted by BobbyMike
    Even if you're not abiding in His love yet, I think you're alright
    Thanks! I think you are (quite ) alright, too. Although I have to say it is not really fun to argue with you any more, you seem to be far too reasonable lately.

    Say, did you ever note how decidedly left-wing the life of the followers of Jesus was in the early years "after Christ"? I still haven't quite given up hope on you regarding politics, as you can see! (Though I am not even "left" myself, but certainly not conservative either!)
    “Reality is that which, when you stop believing in it, doesn't go away.” (Philip K. ****)
  12. #12  
    OK you two, get a room

    But seriously I wished more people had bobbymike and clulups attitudes.
    <IMG WIDTH="200" HEIGHT="50" SRC=http://www.visorcentral.com/images/visorcentral.gif> (ex)VisorCentral Discussion Moderator
    Do files get embarrassed when they get unzipped?
  13. #13  
    Only kidding

    I have appreciated the discourse with most of the forum members, even when we have strongly disagreed. In fact, due to these discussions, I have made a significant about face on a couple of matters.

    What is disappointing is when other members make their entry into the foray claiming the name of Christ, while simultaneously defaming His name with their contributions.

    From what I can read, Y'shus (Jesus) reserved His most harsh words for the religious leaders who should have known better. To the guilty, He offered pardon with the instruction to not continue in the sin.

    As to the Bible, I think another key aspect to its historical context is that the writers had no idea that they were writing "the Bible." Rather, they were merely recording their history, visions, poetry, and advice. It is fairly recent that a collection of these writings was canonized and offered as a standard. In canonization of text, it is established that the collection of works represents a concise view of what "christians" believe.

    It is worthwhile to remember this when other questions come up such as why other "gospels" are not considered "holy scripture." Understandably, the compilers did not include texts that disputed or contradicted their understanding. It is up to subsequent readers to determine which, if either, source is accurate/valid.

    I will say this....when you look at the congruence of the texts that were compiled, coupled with authentication of the manuscripts, coupled further with the archaeological evidence that continues to come forth, further augmented by the accuracy of predictions, all substantiated by the statistical improbability of these diverse (in time and geographically) converging on a single individual in history....it makes a compelling story.

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