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  1. #121  
    Quote Originally Posted by riekl
    Woof,

    Again there is still a problem with your interpretation. You are absolutely 100% right that the constiution trumps everything, anything in it overides anything any state or any goverment wants to do period shy of an additional amendment.

    However, the first amendment does not say the "goverment" it very specificaly and narrowly says "the Congress". Even if you apply this same definitions to the states it has no impact.


    My point of a state making a state religon was a bit wide I agree it was typed fairly quickly to make a point. But on a more narrow front that point can be shown by something very simple, government buildings ARE permitted to have religious items in them, publicaly funded schools CAN have christmas parties, what they can not do is hold a mandatory church service, they can not force anyone to participate in any of these semi religous activites.

    That is the point I was really trying to make.
    Not to split hairs but since Congress is the only branch of government allowed to make laws, it can be said they are interchangeable in that example.
    “There are four boxes to be used in defense of liberty: soap, ballot, jury, and ammo. Please use in that order.”
    — Ed Howdershelt
    "A government big enough to give you everything you want, is big enough to take away everything you have."- Thomas Jefferson
  2. NRG
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    #122  
    Quote Originally Posted by riekl
    NRG,

    This is why I disagree with you .. that entire phrase "seperation of church and state" is so bogus it is 100% made up. The framers of our goverment NEVER wanted it to be interpreted as such and that is very easy to prove. Their constant mentions of god both in the Declaration and the constitution itself. These were men of god who did NOT want a "State Religion" forced upon people like England had, however they equally vehmentaly did NOT want an absence of religon like the left is interpretting. I predict a major shift in the country over the next 5 years where many of these silly seperation of church and state rulings get over turned as they have no constituitional basis whatsoever.
    Do you know who said "separation of chruch and state"?
    --------------------------------------------------------------------------
    Jefferson's Letter to the Danbury Baptists
    The Draft and Recently Discovered Text
    To messers Nehemiah Dodge, Ephraim Robbins, & Stephen S. Nelson, a committee of the Danbury Baptist association in the state of Connecticut.

    Gentlemen

    The affectionate sentiments of esteem & approbation which you are so good as to express towards me, on behalf of the Danbury Baptist association, give me the highest satisfaction. my duties dictate a faithful & zealous pursuit of the interests of my constituents, and, in proportion as they are persuaded of my fidelity to those duties, the discharge of them becomes more & more pleasing.

    Believing with you that religion is a matter which lies solely between man & his god, that he owes account to none other for his faith or his worship, that the legitimate powers of government reach actions only and not opinions, I contemplate with sovereign reverence that act of the whole American people which declared that their legislature should "make no law respecting an establishment of religion, or prohibiting the free exercise thereof;" thus building a wall of eternal separation between Church & State. Congress thus inhibited from acts respecting religion, and the Executive authorised only to execute their acts, I have refrained from prescribing even those occasional performances of devotion, practiced indeed by the Executive of another nation as the legal head of its church, but subject here, as religious exercises only to the voluntary regulations and discipline of each respective sect,

    [Jefferson first wrote: "confining myself therefore to the duties of my station, which are merely temporal, be assured that your religious rights shall never be infringed by any act of mine and that." These lines he crossed out and then wrote: "concurring with"; having crossed out these two words, he wrote: "Adhering to this great act of national legislation in behalf of the rights of conscience"; next he crossed out these words and wrote: "Adhering to this expression of the supreme will of the nation in behalf of the rights of conscience I shall see with friendly dispositions the progress of those sentiments which tend to restore to man all his natural rights, convinced that he has no natural rights in opposition to his social duties."]

    I reciprocate your kind prayers for the protection & blessing of the common father and creator of man, and tender you for yourselves & the Danbury Baptist [your religious] association assurances of my high respect & esteem.

    Th Jefferson
    Jan. 1. 1802.

    http://www.loc.gov/loc/lcib/9806/danpost.html
  3. #123  
    THANK YOU for posting that!! That's a quick cite to the standard reply to this issue.
  4. #124  
    You know you ultra-secularists are just as bad as the far right religious conservatives. Both extremes are completely intolerant of anyone's opinion except their own. Separation of the church from the state does not mean banishment of the church from the state!! Why does everything always have to be the total extreme!
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  5. #125  
    I believe that if you think about it for a moment you'll realize that the gov't cannot possibly evenly involve ALL religions on whatever way it may want to. Therefore the alternative is for the gov't not to touch religion. It's only logical, not extremist.
  6. #126  
    Quote Originally Posted by daThomas
    I believe that if you think about it for a moment you'll realize that the gov't cannot possibly evenly involve ALL religions on whatever way it may want to. Therefore the alternative is for the gov't not to touch religion. It's only logical, not extremist.

    No it is extremist b/c now you are imposing your beliefs and views against all forms of religion on others. Its the same thing but just in reverse. People need to have the ability to have options and choices, not told by the government that no choices will be offerred...
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  7. #127  
    I fail to see how keeping the gov't out of religion is imposing a view on anyone? Please do elaborate?
  8. #128  
    Quote Originally Posted by daThomas
    I fail to see how keeping the gov't out of religion is imposing a view on anyone? Please do elaborate?
    T arent you really talking about the opposite? Keeping religion out of government seems to be more the focus of your efforts. A governemnt w/o and reference to any religion in any form is what youre after isnt it?
    “There are four boxes to be used in defense of liberty: soap, ballot, jury, and ammo. Please use in that order.”
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    "A government big enough to give you everything you want, is big enough to take away everything you have."- Thomas Jefferson
  9. #129  
    Quote Originally Posted by daThomas
    I fail to see how keeping the gov't out of religion is imposing a view on anyone? Please do elaborate?

    Of course that's a view! You are imposing your beliefs which may be athesism, agnosticism, secularism or whatever on others religious beliefs. It is a view just the same equivlant to another person's religious view.
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  10. #130  
    Quote Originally Posted by daThomas
    I fail to see how keeping the gov't out of religion is imposing a view on anyone? Please do elaborate?
    I think the matter revolves around the (at least) two notions of religion. There is (1) the system practices endorsed and/or enforced by a body of citizens. There is also (2) the more general concept of 'a belief system.'

    Secularism, as some are prone to call it, is a belief system.
  11. #131  
    Ahhhhhh, see that's what happens. Religious people knee-jerk that if the gov't doesn't support a religion or put "god" on our money then that makes us atheists.

    No it doesn't. "The view that religious considerations should be excluded from civil affairs or public education" does not endorse atheism either. It's a religious belief as well.
  12. #132  
    But, the problem is, people can not not be who they are. Nor can they not believe what they believe. So, while you can easily draw a legal line between religion and civil, it is not easy to draw lines between people and their careers, or people and their civic duties/responsibilities.
  13. #133  
    Quote Originally Posted by daThomas
    Ahhhhhh, see that's what happens. Religious people knee-jerk that if the gov't doesn't support a religion or put "god" on our money then that makes us atheists.

    No it doesn't. "The view that religious considerations should be excluded from civil affairs or public education" does not endorse atheism either. It's a religious belief as well.
    First of all I didn't say you were an atheist. I said they could be anything just listing atheisism in addtion to a couple others that you conveniently did not read...

    Secondly, you just stated that excluding religious considerations from public education can be a religious belief. That is IMPOSING a view on others!!! Is that so hard to understand?
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  14. #134  
    First of all I didn't say you were an atheist. I said they could be anything just listing atheisism in addtion to a couple others that you conveniently did not read...
    I did not mean to imply this. When I said "us atheists" I meant "us" as a Nation.


    Secondly, you just stated that excluding religious considerations from public education can be a religious belief. That is IMPOSING a view on others!!! Is that so hard to understand?
    Ok, we're having a hard time with each others reading comprehension. Allow me to restate this. Secularism is NOT atheism. Atheism is a religious belief and secularism is the choice not to get involved in religion.
  15. #135  
    But, the problem is, people can not not be who they are. Nor can they not believe what they believe. So, while you can easily draw a legal line between religion and civil, it is not easy to draw lines between people and their careers, or people and their civic duties/responsibilities.
    That's all well and good. The 1st Amendment also protects the individual from the gov't.

    As a teacher you can wear a crucifix and tell your pupils what religion you are (preferably if asked first) . This is the individual part.

    However, when you start reading the Satanist's Bible in front of your pupils, say, during quiet time, or saying satinists prayers quietly to yourself during quiet time, you're crossing the line from individual to gov't employee endorsing a religion.
  16. #136  
    Quote Originally Posted by daThomas

    Ok, we're having a hard time with each others reading comprehension. Allow me to restate this. Secularism is NOT atheism. Atheism is a religious belief and secularism is the choice not to get involved in religion.

    No secularism is an ideology just like any other ideology be it political, religious or whatever. Trying to cover it with veiled semantics doesn't fly...
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  17. #137  
    Quote Originally Posted by daThomas
    I did not mean to imply this. When I said "us atheists" I meant "us" as a Nation.




    Ok, we're having a hard time with each others reading comprehension. Allow me to restate this. Secularism is NOT atheism. Atheism is a religious belief and secularism is the choice not to get involved in religion.
    If secularism is a choice, why must you insist that the government force it upon everyone?
    “There are four boxes to be used in defense of liberty: soap, ballot, jury, and ammo. Please use in that order.”
    — Ed Howdershelt
    "A government big enough to give you everything you want, is big enough to take away everything you have."- Thomas Jefferson
  18. #138  
    Webster presents it this way:

    Main Entry: sec·u·lar·ism
    Pronunciation: 'se-ky&-l&-"ri-z&m
    Function: noun
    : indifference to or rejection or exclusion of religion and religious considerations
  19. #139  
    People are not secular. The Gov't is.
  20. #140  
    If that definition were used, my question would be, is the government to be "indifferent to" or "exclusive of" religion and religious consideration?

    Both seem to fit the definition.
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