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  1. #101  
    Quote Originally Posted by daThomas
    No, a state law or constitution cannot deny a right given by the federal costitution.
    _HOWEVER_ The Amendment is _VERY_ specific it says very clearly that CONGRESS shall make no law. This means that a state very well CAN make such laws if they so wish.
  2. #102  
    Cripes, it's not rocket science. A state congress cannot make a law which violates the Federal Constitution.
  3. #103  
    Quote Originally Posted by riekl
    _HOWEVER_ The Amendment is _VERY_ specific it says very clearly that CONGRESS shall make no law. This means that a state very well CAN make such laws if they so wish.
    actually riekl thats not true.
    The Constitution leaves other powers to the states to exercise at their discretion, with two exceptions. First, Article VI says the Constitution is the “supreme law,” so the states cannot make laws that conflict with federal laws. ---from and Encarta article on the Constitution.
    “There are four boxes to be used in defense of liberty: soap, ballot, jury, and ammo. Please use in that order.”
    — Ed Howdershelt
    "A government big enough to give you everything you want, is big enough to take away everything you have."- Thomas Jefferson
  4. #104  
    Quote Originally Posted by Woof
    actually riekl thats not true.
    The Constitution leaves other powers to the states to exercise at their discretion, with two exceptions. First, Article VI says the Constitution is the “supreme law,” so the states cannot make laws that conflict with federal laws. ---from and Encarta article on the Constitution.
    I think there is some confusion here .. I didnt say states could make laws that trump the constitution

    What I said was that the Amendment in question very specificaly limits its scope to the Congress of the United States. This means that the portion of the first amendment referening to establishment of religon does NOT apply to state legislatures.
  5. #105  
    Let me put it another way.

    The Federal constitution says you cannot discriminate on the basis of sex. Do you think a state can pass a law which allows for this?
  6. #106  
    Quote Originally Posted by daThomas
    Let me put it another way.

    The Federal constitution says you cannot discriminate on the basis of sex. Do you think a state can pass a law which allows for this?
    Absolutely not.

    However the Federal constitution does NOT say that the government can have nothing to do with religon. What it says is Congress can not pass any laws in favor of or in discrimination of such.

    There is nothing in the amendment to prevent say the state of Michigan declaring Protestant to be the religon of the state of MI.
  7. #107  
    OMG , does anyone else want to try to draw the picture for him/her?
  8. #108  
    Quote Originally Posted by daThomas
    OMG , does anyone else want to try to draw the picture for him/her?
    ? The amendment is very clear .. you along with a lot of people in your party are intent on reading more then is there. For the 10th time the Amendment states quite clearly that the Congress may not make any law in regards to religon thats it in a nutshell.

    Yet you are intent on reading that VERY specific wording to mean that the "government" can not be involved with any religion at any level, and that is not true. I think it is you that needs a picture drawn you seem unable to read a single sentence and understand that it does not have meanings outside of what was written.
  9. #109  
    There is nothing in the amendment to prevent say the state of Michigan declaring Protestant to be the religon of the state of MI.
    Ok, I'll try one more time. A state law cannot supercede a Federally Guranteed right. So since that state act would violate my federal First Amendment rights, the Federal Supreme Court would decalre it unconstitutional.

    Is that plain enough?
  10. NRG
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    #110  
    Quote Originally Posted by riekl
    ? The amendment is very clear .. you along with a lot of people in your party are intent on reading more then is there. For the 10th time the Amendment states quite clearly that the Congress may not make any law in regards to religon thats it in a nutshell.

    Yet you are intent on reading that VERY specific wording to mean that the "government" can not be involved with any religion at any level, and that is not true. I think it is you that needs a picture drawn you seem unable to read a single sentence and understand that it does not have meanings outside of what was written.
    Just wondering how would you feel if Islam was pushed by our courts and government? I have a feeling you would not like that at all.
  11. NRG
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    #111  
    Quote Originally Posted by riekl
    Absolutely not.

    However the Federal constitution does NOT say that the government can have nothing to do with religon. What it says is Congress can not pass any laws in favor of or in discrimination of such.

    There is nothing in the amendment to prevent say the state of Michigan declaring Protestant to be the religon of the state of MI.
    In addition to the ban on Congress establishing an official state religion, the Fourteenth Amendment to the United States Constitution bans the individual states from establishing an official state religion as well. Justice Clarence Thomas disagrees with this interpretation.
  12. #112  
    Quote Originally Posted by riekl
    ? The amendment is very clear .. you along with a lot of people in your party are intent on reading more then is there. For the 10th time the Amendment states quite clearly that the Congress may not make any law in regards to religon thats it in a nutshell.

    Yet you are intent on reading that VERY specific wording to mean that the "government" can not be involved with any religion at any level, and that is not true. I think it is you that needs a picture drawn you seem unable to read a single sentence and understand that it does not have meanings outside of what was written.
    Thomas I am going top step over to your side of the discussion for a sec ok. Be gentle with me ok.

    riekl, the problem you are having is that you are only looking at the amendment itself. The Constitution is a document that must be taken as a whole. Even though the amendment does not say anything about the states, Article 4 does and you cant just use each section exclusively.

    Even thought there is no specfic reference to the states in the 1st amendment, Article VI says the Constitution is the “supreme law,” so the states cannot do that which conflicts with the Constitution.

    So in a sense you are right and wrong. Right that the amendment doesnt say anything about the states, but wrong because that is covered elsewhere in the document.

    Back to my side.
    My big thing with this isnt the definition of government but the definition of "establish". To me unless the government in whatever form, state, local, federal, is saying "this will now be the religion that we all must practice and there will be no others allowed", they are not establishing religion. Having the Ten Commandments in a building isn't forcing a religion on anyone because it isnt saying you must stop whatever religion you have and only practice this one. The Bill of Rights does not say anywhere that religion will be scoured from the public consciousness, it says we have the freedom to practice that religion we choose even if thats no religion. As I see it the ACLU is trying to do the former no protect our right to the latter.
    “There are four boxes to be used in defense of liberty: soap, ballot, jury, and ammo. Please use in that order.”
    — Ed Howdershelt
    "A government big enough to give you everything you want, is big enough to take away everything you have."- Thomas Jefferson
  13. NRG
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    #113  
    Quote Originally Posted by Woof
    My big thing with this isnt the definition of government but the definition of "establish". To me unless the government in whatever form, state, local, federal, is saying "this will now be the religion that we all must practice and there will be no others allowed", they are not establishing religion. Having the Ten Commandments in a building isn't forcing a religion on anyone because it isnt saying you must stop whatever religion you have and only practice this one. The Bill of Rights does not say anywhere that religion will be scoured from the public consciousness, it says we have the freedom to practice that religion we choose even if thats no religion. As I see it the ACLU is trying to do the former no protect our right to the latter.
    Today, most Americans hold the separation of Church and State to be one of their nation's key political values. The First Amendment to the United States Constitution explicitly bans Congress from making a law to establish an official state religion for the United States, and according to various constitutional scholars also indicates that the US Government cannot perform any action or make any policy which blatantly favors one faith or church over another, or even favors belief over non-belief or the other way around. Constitutional interpretation and political reality often vary, however.
  14. #114  
    Yup, that about covers it and welcome to why the U.S. is the greatest country in the world.
  15. #115  
    Quote Originally Posted by Woof
    Thomas I am going top step over to your side of the discussion for a sec ok. Be gentle with me ok.

    riekl, the problem you are having is that you are only looking at the amendment itself. The Constitution is a document that must be taken as a whole. Even though the amendment does not say anything about the states, Article 4 does and you cant just use each section exclusively.

    Even thought there is no specfic reference to the states in the 1st amendment, Article VI says the Constitution is the “supreme law,” so the states cannot do that which conflicts with the Constitution.

    So in a sense you are right and wrong. Right that the amendment doesnt say anything about the states, but wrong because that is covered elsewhere in the document.

    Back to my side.
    My big thing with this isnt the definition of government but the definition of "establish". To me unless the government in whatever form, state, local, federal, is saying "this will now be the religion that we all must practice and there will be no others allowed", they are not establishing religion. Having the Ten Commandments in a building isn't forcing a religion on anyone because it isnt saying you must stop whatever religion you have and only practice this one. The Bill of Rights does not say anywhere that religion will be scoured from the public consciousness, it says we have the freedom to practice that religion we choose even if thats no religion. As I see it the ACLU is trying to do the former no protect our right to the latter.
    Woof,

    Again there is still a problem with your interpretation. You are absolutely 100% right that the constiution trumps everything, anything in it overides anything any state or any goverment wants to do period shy of an additional amendment.

    However, the first amendment does not say the "goverment" it very specificaly and narrowly says "the Congress". Even if you apply this same definitions to the states it has no impact.

    My point of a state making a state religon was a bit wide I agree it was typed fairly quickly to make a point. But on a more narrow front that point can be shown by something very simple, government buildings ARE permitted to have religious items in them, publicaly funded schools CAN have christmas parties, what they can not do is hold a mandatory church service, they can not force anyone to participate in any of these semi religous activites.

    That is the point I was really trying to make.
  16. #116  
    Quote Originally Posted by NRG
    Today, most Americans hold the separation of Church and State to be one of their nation's key political values. The First Amendment to the United States Constitution explicitly bans Congress from making a law to establish an official state religion for the United States, and according to various constitutional scholars also indicates that the US Government cannot perform any action or make any policy which blatantly favors one faith or church over another, or even favors belief over non-belief or the other way around. Constitutional interpretation and political reality often vary, however.
    NRG,

    This is why I disagree with you .. that entire phrase "seperation of church and state" is so bogus it is 100% made up. The framers of our goverment NEVER wanted it to be interpreted as such and that is very easy to prove. Their constant mentions of god both in the Declaration and the constitution itself. These were men of god who did NOT want a "State Religion" forced upon people like England had, however they equally vehmentaly did NOT want an absence of religon like the left is interpretting. I predict a major shift in the country over the next 5 years where many of these silly seperation of church and state rulings get over turned as they have no constituitional basis whatsoever.
  17. #117  
    The word "god" does NOT appear in the Constitution or it's amendments.

    The phrases, "Natures god" and "their Creator" appear once each in the Declaration of Independence, of which both could possibly allow for atheism but neither of which appear to endorse a single christian diety.

    And again I repeat, The word "god" does NOT appear in the Constitution or it's amendments.
  18. #118  
    I did not say Christian now did I ? What I said was that they did NOT want a goverment absent of religon.

    Nature's god .. this seems a pretty clear religious refrence to me =)
  19. #119  
    Seems to allow for even a non-sentient creator, like evolution..
  20. #120  
    Just to be clear, the 14th Amendment has a "privileges and immunities clause" which provides: "No state shall make or enforce any law which shall abridge the privileges or immunities of citizens of the United States"

    That means the constitutional limitations apply to the states, as well as the federal government.
    Palm V-->Visor Deluxe-->Visor Prism-->Visorphone-->Treo 180-->Treo 600-->Treo 650 on Sprint-->Treo 700p-->Centro-->Diamond-->Pre-->HTC EVO 4g???!
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