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  1. #21  
    Quote Originally Posted by Chick-Dance
    People voted for them. They work for us, no? Besides, not all of them white, men and rich. And even the white/men ones are not all rich. Heck, even the rich/men are not all white. But, perhaps most importantly: who cares who they are if they do their job right? Democracy has its price, ya know
    Call me synical but when have they ever done their jobs right?
  2. #22  
    cynical??
    Well behaved women rarely make history
  3. #23  
    Quote Originally Posted by clairegrrl
    cynical??
    Or you could call me a bad speller
  4. #24  
    Quote Originally Posted by larry91403
    Call me synical but when have they ever done their jobs right?
    Exactly! And now you want to trust these same people to run your healthcare? Yikes!!!
    MaxiMunK.com The Forum That Asks, "Are You Not Entertained?"

    Remember: "Anyone that thinks the Treo should just work right out of the box, shouldn't own a Treo..."
  5. #25  
    Quote Originally Posted by Chick-Dance
    Last thing I want is to hold hands with the government, honestly. But any government on the face of the earth, to some extend, must take care of its citizens and to an acceptable capacity. Whenever I read about JFK's remark: "...ask not what your country can do for you - ask what you can do for your country," it rings volumes, I admit, but still: How far removed do you want to be from the government?
    Well, I'm not an anarchist, nor a Fundementalist Libertarian. I just do not want the government involved in my day to day life.

    The worst thing to ever happen was 1928 and 1929 when the House and Senate were fitted with air conditioning. Gone are the days when the House and Senate would go home for the summer. Now they have the entire year to open their pie-holes and figure out news laws and taxes to introduce. Aren't we taxed enough? If the government one year didn't spend a dime of the taxes they got, and split it up evenly between every man woman and child, we'd all be multi-millionaires.

    I'm sorry but they get enough money as it is. Stop the waste, before you want to introduce new entitlements.
    MaxiMunK.com The Forum That Asks, "Are You Not Entertained?"

    Remember: "Anyone that thinks the Treo should just work right out of the box, shouldn't own a Treo..."
  6. #26  
    Quote Originally Posted by Insertion
    Exactly! And now you want to trust these same people to run your healthcare? Yikes!!!
    No - I want them to pass a law that creates universal healthcare system that would be staffed by healthcare professionals.
  7. #27  
    Quote Originally Posted by Insertion
    Well, I'm not an anarchist, nor a Fundementalist Libertarian. I just do not want the government involved in my day to day life.

    The worst thing to ever happen was 1928 and 1929 when the House and Senate were fitted with air conditioning. Gone are the days when the House and Senate would go home for the summer. Now they have the entire year to open their pie-holes and figure out news laws and taxes to introduce. Aren't we taxed enough? If the government one year didn't spend a dime of the taxes they got, and split it up evenly between every man woman and child, we'd all be multi-millionaires.

    I'm sorry but they get enough money as it is. Stop the waste, before you want to introduce new entitlements.
    Ahh entitlements. That was a popular catch phrase this past election year.

    The way I see it - regardless of who owns it - I'm gonna wind up paying for it whether it be through income tax, SS Tax, VAT, Sales Tax, increased prices at the pump, higher utility bills, etc...

    Whatever happened to compassionate conservativism?
  8. #28  
    Quote Originally Posted by larry91403
    Or you could call me a bad speller
    If I did, some would chastize me for making a personal attach.
    Well behaved women rarely make history
  9. #29  
    Quote Originally Posted by larry91403
    No - I want them to pass a law that creates universal healthcare system that would be staffed by healthcare professionals.
    Gee...arent most doctors rich white guys. Just crooks in white coats
    Well behaved women rarely make history
  10. #30  
    Quote Originally Posted by larry91403
    Whatever happened to compassionate conservativism?
    That was just a catchy phrase...didnt you know that?
    Well behaved women rarely make history
  11. #31  
    Two observations:
    1. Medicare has been a very successful healthcare delivery system. The administrative costs run about 4% to 5%. Corporate health insurance has admin costs of 20% to 30%. We already have a system in place to expand healthcare coverage. Premiums now paid to the insurance companies could be shifted to the Medicare program, and could conceivably drop.
    2. The people making the decisions on Social Security reform are not subject to the changes they enact. Federal workers are covered by a completely separate system.
    Zane
  12. #32  
    Quote Originally Posted by zvandiver
    Two observations:
    1. Medicare has been a very successful healthcare delivery system. The administrative costs run about 4% to 5%. Corporate health insurance has admin costs of 20% to 30%. We already have a system in place to expand healthcare coverage. Premiums now paid to the insurance companies could be shifted to the Medicare program, and could conceivably drop.
    Zane
    Doesnt "Corporate" healthcare and HMOs own the hospitals. When you transfer the premiums to the government and the corporate, for profit providers go bankrupt, what hospitals will you be going to?
    Well behaved women rarely make history
  13. #33  
    One of the biggest problems in for-profit healthcare today is that the corporations are accountable to their shareholders and not the people receiving medical care. They make more money doing more procedures and tests and less when they work to keep people well. Free market medicine makes money from people being sick, not from people working to stay well.
    Look at the compensation of the big companies' CEO's. They are rewarded for increasing the stock value, not delivering good health care.
    Zane
  14. #34  
    Quote Originally Posted by zvandiver
    One of the biggest problems in for-profit healthcare today is that the corporations are accountable to their shareholders and not the people receiving medical care. They make more money doing more procedures and tests and less when they work to keep people well. Free market medicine makes money from people being sick, not from people working to stay well.
    Look at the compensation of the big companies' CEO's. They are rewarded for increasing the stock value, not delivering good health care.
    Zane
    You still didnt answer my question...who will own the hospitals??? The Government?? Why is making a profit bad. It is the reward for risking your capital.
    Well behaved women rarely make history
  15. #35  
    Medical care cannot work on a strict for-profit basis. Yes, the doctors and hospitals have to make money, but it should be to cover expenses and make a living, not return dividends to stockholders. The first responsibility of healthcare should be making and keeping people well, not returning an investment for stockholders. Our current system is way out of whack. People with money or insurnace get great care, and people without get very little or none. Those without end up in emergency rooms much sicker than if they had seen a doctor in an office. And those of us with money and insurance end up paying for those without.
    Capitalism is great for selling widgets, but not for curing diseases and promoting good health.
  16. #36  
    Quote Originally Posted by zvandiver
    Medical care cannot work on a strict for-profit basis. Yes, the doctors and hospitals have to make money, but it should be to cover expenses and make a living, not return dividends to stockholders. The first responsibility of healthcare should be making and keeping people well, not returning an investment for stockholders. Our current system is way out of whack. People with money or insurnace get great care, and people without get very little or none. Those without end up in emergency rooms much sicker than if they had seen a doctor in an office. And those of us with money and insurance end up paying for those without.
    Capitalism is great for selling widgets, but not for curing diseases and promoting good health.
    Some how your logic escapes me. It is for profit corporations that build and run hospitals. Stockholders are entitled to a return on their investments. Its called profit.

    Your comment "those of us with money and insurance end up paying for those without." certainly makes no sense in that that's exactly what will continue happen.

    You want the hospitals to be run as a not for profit business with the government running things and paying the hospitals from the "premiums" that the citizens pay in, also called taxes. Who pays for the millions on people that dont pay any taxes?? You already said you didnt want to.
    Well behaved women rarely make history
  17. #37  
    what's interesting is that the AARP claims investing your retirement in the stock market would be a disaster, yet when you take a look at how they setup their own retirement systems, you find that 50% of it is invested in stocks and bonds.

    can you get anymore hypocritical?

    the other interesting thing here is that the democrats are the ones who clamored for something to be done about social security, so attempts are being made to improve the problem.

    but before they even hear or understand bush's plan, many are attacking it.

    well, let's hear what the better plan of attack would be for security if in fact bush's strategy is so incorrect. I haven't heard anything other than criticism.

    if you want so badly to defeat bush and garner support for your cause, then come up with a better plan.

    criticism is easy. designing a concrete plan is the tough part. so far, unfortunately, the only thing im hearing is the easy part.
  18. #38  
    Quote Originally Posted by larry91403
    Ahh entitlements. That was a popular catch phrase this past election year.
    I don't know where you get that from. Merriam-Webster defines entitlement as:
    1 a : the state or condition of being entitled : RIGHT, b : a right to benefits specified especially by law or contract
    2 : a government program providing benefits to members of a specified group; also : funds supporting or distributed by such a program.

    It's a definition to me. I'm not sure where the "catch phrase" comes from since these things have been called "entitlements" for years.
    Quote Originally Posted by larry91403
    The way I see it - regardless of who owns it - I'm gonna wind up paying for it whether it be through income tax, SS Tax, VAT, Sales Tax, increased prices at the pump, higher utility bills, etc...
    Yes, and you seem resigned to this fact. Roll over and take the money? The budget is over two TRILLION dollars. I don't think people have any concept of how much money that is. They have more than enough of our money to spend. They don't need more, they need to utilize it better. How much is enough?? And who is to decide?
    Quote Originally Posted by larry91403
    Whatever happened to compassionate conservativism?
    Well, now there was catch-phrase.
    MaxiMunK.com The Forum That Asks, "Are You Not Entertained?"

    Remember: "Anyone that thinks the Treo should just work right out of the box, shouldn't own a Treo..."
  19. #39  
    Quote Originally Posted by Chick-Dance
    Rhetoric is OK but how far?
    I think even the most liberal souls in the U.S. arenít saying that the government needs to hold our hands every step we take. But we all need (or will need) the government eventually; it is the price of democracy. Unlike you, I see no evil in a democratically elected government. Surly thereís waist and bureaucracy in government but things do get done.
    Never have I said a democratically elected government is "evil." That is a ridiculous statement.
    Quote Originally Posted by Chick-Dance
    Your criticism of the government, notwithstanding, is fine to a point, but try slamming those control-your-government breaks and consider an alternative that does not include a democratic government.
    Such as Socialism? Communism? Monarchy? Theocracy? Why should I consider an alternative when I have no desire to live under those rules. Our system is fine, it's just fat and bloated.
    Quote Originally Posted by Chick-Dance
    Then you might think twice about getting rid of governmental nit picking. The government exists for you and me. It is our job to make sure the government continues to exist for us, not for itself.
    You can't have it both ways. If the government does exisit for us, then I have the right to nit-pick.
    MaxiMunK.com The Forum That Asks, "Are You Not Entertained?"

    Remember: "Anyone that thinks the Treo should just work right out of the box, shouldn't own a Treo..."
  20. #40  
    Quote Originally Posted by zvandiver
    Capitalism is great for selling widgets, but not for curing diseases and promoting good health.
    No? Name me a Government that cured anything. It is private industry that researches and develops medications. What Administration invented the X-Ray or MRI? Was Jonas Salk part of the Legislative, Judicial or Executive branch??
    MaxiMunK.com The Forum That Asks, "Are You Not Entertained?"

    Remember: "Anyone that thinks the Treo should just work right out of the box, shouldn't own a Treo..."
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