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  1. #141  
    ... and yet it happened.
    Recognizing that I volunteered...
  2. #142  
    Quote Originally Posted by AlaskanDad
    ... and yet it happened.
    Yeah, sure. Tell me about Exodus 31:15:

    "Six days may work be done; but in the seventh is the sabbath of rest, holy to the LORD: whosoever doeth any work in the sabbath day, he shall surely be put to death."


    Quite a clear instruction, isn't it: put to death everybody who works on the seventh day. It is hard for me to believe that this is literally true for you, or for others in this forum.
    “Reality is that which, when you stop believing in it, doesn't go away.” (Philip K. ****)
  3. #143  
    You're correct. I'm not (nor is any Christian) bound by this.

    These were very clear instructions to Jews under the law. Christ came to free us from the law. Christians are not bound by the law for salvation. All that is required is to accept Jesus into your heart.

    Just as kindergarter kids get one recess at my daughter's school, first graders get two. You just have to know how to read the book according to its own rules.

    By the way, you brought up a great point that I'm sure you didn't intend. This was a VERY important part of the Ten Commandments. Why in the world would Christians insist that our laws reflect the Ten Commandments or that we should be bound by them? I know I work on Saturday. I'm freed from this requirement.

    You may continue to attack the Bible if you wish. I don't feel threatened by you. I won't ever tell you that you're wrong or that I feel uncomfortable about your thoughts. I'm sorry that my steadfast insistence of my Bible's accuracy threatens you. It is not my wish. I don't challenge your belief system (I don't know what that is) at all. You are welcome to it.

    I am tolerant as my Lord taught me to be.
    Recognizing that I volunteered...
  4.    #144  
    Quote Originally Posted by clulup
    Yeah, sure. Tell me about Exodus 31:15:

    "Six days may work be done; but in the seventh is the sabbath of rest, holy to the LORD: whosoever doeth any work in the sabbath day, he shall surely be put to death."


    Quite a clear instruction, isn't it: put to death everybody who works on the seventh day. It is hard for me to believe that this is literally true for you, or for others in this forum.
    Was it the literal instruction? Yes
    Was it literally carried out? Probably to some extent, but I don't know.
    Do people who refuse to refresh themselves physically, mentally, and spiritually get put to death? yes (heart attack comes to mind)
  5. #145  
    Quote Originally Posted by AlaskanDad
    You're correct. I'm not (nor is any Christian) bound by this.
    Did Jesus say this? Where?
    These were very clear instructions to Jews under the law. Christ came to free us from the law. Christians are not bound by the law for salvation.
    If you were freed from the laws in the Old Testament, maybe you were also meant to be freed from literally believing in Genesis and the story of Noah, etc.?
    “Reality is that which, when you stop believing in it, doesn't go away.” (Philip K. ****)
  6. #146  
    Quote Originally Posted by shopharim
    Was it the literal instruction? Yes
    Was it literally carried out? Probably to some extent, but I don't know.
    What do you mean, you don't know? I am shocked!

    "‘Now while the sons of Israel were in the wilderness, they found a man gathering wood on the sabbath day. 33And those who found him gathering wood brought him to Moses and Aaron, and to all the congregation; 34and they put him in custody because it had not been declared what should be done to him. 35Then the Lord said to Moses, "The man shall surely be put to death; all the congregation shall stone him with stones outside the camp." 36So all the congregation brought him outside the camp, and stoned him to death with stones, just as the Lord had commanded Moses." (Numbers 15:32)


    Stoning to death for picking sticks on sabbath... tough god, tough rules.
    “Reality is that which, when you stop believing in it, doesn't go away.” (Philip K. ****)
  7. #147  
    Yes, Jesus said this. However, what you are asking for is for me to evangelize and I don't believe this forum to be the place for that.

    These ideas are at the heart of the Christian faith. If you'd like to learn about them, please send me a private message. However, I will not share the promise of eternal salvation as a defense.

    If you were freed from the laws in the Old Testament, maybe you were also meant to be freed from literally believing in Genesis and the story of Noah, etc.?
    To draw from another secular example (sorry for sounding outlandish or far-reaching), the 18th Amendment was the law of the land until it was repealed. However, I still believe it was written at one time and enforced. It just doesn't apply to me any longer.

    This stuff isn't hard. It's just hard to believe.
    Recognizing that I volunteered...
  8. #148  
    Quote Originally Posted by AlaskanDad
    Yes, Jesus said this. However, what you are asking for is for me to evangelize and I don't believe this forum to be the place for that.
    No need to evangelize, I just wanted to know the quote (if there is one) where Jesus said the laws of Exodus and the rest of the Old Testament rules don't apply any more, because I didn't know about this, maybe I forgot.
    “Reality is that which, when you stop believing in it, doesn't go away.” (Philip K. ****)
  9. #149  
    Quote Originally Posted by clulup
    Yeah, sure. Tell me about Exodus 31:15:

    "Six days may work be done; but in the seventh is the sabbath of rest, holy to the LORD: whosoever doeth any work in the sabbath day, he shall surely be put to death."


    Quite a clear instruction, isn't it: put to death everybody who works on the seventh day. It is hard for me to believe that this is literally true for you, or for others in this forum.
    Explain something to me if you would. You regularly show disdain for what others believe or that anyone would have a belief system that takes the words of the bible literally. Are you not taking them literally in your efforts to prove others beliefs are wrong? Why can you not allow others to believe what they wish? Do you not consider yourself to be a tollerant person? - if so, why do you continue to show great intollerance toward anyone with strong religious beliefs? Is it not their choice to believe as they choose?
  10. #150  
    Quote Originally Posted by treo2die4
    Explain something to me if you would. You regularly show disdain for what others believe or that anyone would have a belief system that takes the words of the bible literally. Are you not taking them literally in your efforts to prove others beliefs are wrong? Why can you not allow others to believe what they wish? Do you not consider yourself to be a tollerant person? - if so, why do you continue to show great intollerance toward anyone with strong religious beliefs? Is it not their choice to believe as they choose?
    Where did I show disdain for the beliefs of others?

    All I did lately was point out contradictions which follow from a literal interpretation of the bible, and ask how this can be resolved (granted I was not convinced by the answers). Shopharim and others have challenged scientific results about evolution in this thread, why should it not be allowed to challenge statements from the bible? Is it not allowed to question them?

    I don't have a problem with religion per se, or with religious people. However, I do feel uncomfortable with highly dogmatic belief systems. As mentioned above, in my view, a literal, word-by-word belief in the bible paves the way for fundamentalism. Actually, it is fundamentalism according to the definition of Webster:

    fun·da·men·tal·ism
    1 a often capitalized : a movement in 20th century Protestantism emphasizing the literally interpreted Bible as fundamental to Christian life and teaching b : the beliefs of this movement c : adherence to such beliefs
    2 : a movement or attitude stressing strict and literal adherence to a set of basic principles
    “Reality is that which, when you stop believing in it, doesn't go away.” (Philip K. ****)
  11. #151  
    Quote Originally Posted by clulup
    Where did I show disdain for the beliefs of others?

    All I did lately was point out contradictions which follow from a literal interpretation of the bible, and ask how this can be resolved (granted I was not convinced by the answers). Shopharim and others have challenged scientific results about evolution in this thread, why should it not be allowed to challenge statements from the bible? Is it not allowed to question them?

    I don't have a problem with religion per se, or with religious people. However, I do feel uncomfortable with highly dogmatic belief systems. As mentioned above, in my view, a literal, word-by-word belief in the bible paves the way for fundamentalism. Actually, it is fundamentalism according to the definition of Webster:

    fun·da·men·tal·ism
    1 a often capitalized : a movement in 20th century Protestantism emphasizing the literally interpreted Bible as fundamental to Christian life and teaching b : the beliefs of this movement c : adherence to such beliefs
    2 : a movement or attitude stressing strict and literal adherence to a set of basic principles
    If you are unable to see the disdain you consistently show, I cannot make you see it. But once again, if some else chooses fundamentalism and it has no adverse impact on you or your life, why will you not just let them be, it is, afterall, their personal choice?
    Last edited by treo2die4; 06/29/2005 at 11:23 AM.
  12. #152  
    Quote Originally Posted by treo2die4
    If you are unable to see the disdain you consistently show, I cannot make you see it.
    At least you could quote me. I think you mis-interpret my statements and read things into them that I do not feel.
    But once again, if some else chooses fundamentalism and it has no adverse impact on your or your life, why will you not just let them be, it is, afterall, their personal choice?
    The fundamentalist fight against evolution is one example of such a (desired) impact.

    OTOH: true, what do I care, I don't live there...
    “Reality is that which, when you stop believing in it, doesn't go away.” (Philip K. ****)
  13. #153  
    Funny that Noah Webster was a fundamentalist.

    I believe in the literal understanding of the Bible. I adhere to these beliefs. I don't fight teaching evolution.

    Your problem is not with fundamentalism (using the proper defintion you've provided). Your problem is other people trying to thrust their beliefs on you or others. I don't like that either. Neither did (does) Jesus.

    The fight against evolution is not fundamentalist (although they use the label); it's an aberration. You won't find any justification in the Bible to demand that teaching Bible truths should be mandatory for non-believers.
    Recognizing that I volunteered...
  14. #154  
    Quote Originally Posted by AlaskanDad
    I believe in the literal understanding of the Bible. I adhere to these beliefs. I don't fight teaching evolution.
    That's really difficult to understand for me. If the bible is literally true, then life on earth started as described in Genesis. In that case, all humanity learned about evolution, all the tons of evidence for evolution, biology, geology, anthropology, etc., all of it must be wrong - which, having seen quite a bit of the evidence myself, and experienced some of it directly, seems VERY unlikely to me. Why not fight evolution if it shows that your belief does not fit the scientific facts and real life evidence? Or, which would seem a more fruitful way for me, abondon the idea that the bible is LITERALLY true, but true in it's basic teachings etc. (as most Christians do)?
    Your problem is not with fundamentalism (using the proper defintion you've provided). Your problem is other people trying to thrust their beliefs on you or others. I don't like that either. Neither did (does) Jesus.
    Sounds good.
    “Reality is that which, when you stop believing in it, doesn't go away.” (Philip K. ****)
  15. #155  
    I can understand that this is difficult. You're trying (at least it appears you're trying a little bit ) to use your natural brain to understand things of the spirit. Ain't gonna happen no matter how hard you try.

    Evidence and conclusions are not the same thing. Sedimentary rock and fossils are evidence. How they got there is a conclusion. There's plenty of evidence of Creation in the first two books of the Bible as well as in the ground. You just don't agree with the conclusions. I'm OK with that. I don't have to make you see things my way. You don't get extra points for making un-believers do or say what you want.

    Why don't I fight evolution because it doesn't agree with the Bible? I'll explain it this way: When my girls are playing tag in the yard with their friends, one of them occasionally tags me. When I was seven, it was the worst thing in the world to be "it". Everyone knows that you had better tag someone else right away because that's how you play. I'm not seven anymore. If I'm not playing their game (although I like to), why should I be concerned if I'm "it"?

    Do I mind if the Creator of the Universe says one thing and people say something different? Nope. I'll stick with the one who's going to be around in another 100 years. Doesn't bother me if people disagree with God. I'm pretty sure it bothers Him though. I guess we'll all find out the answer eventually anyway. I'm covered either way. You?
    Recognizing that I volunteered...
  16. #156  
    Quote Originally Posted by clulup
    However, some people feel the need of going much further than that and claim the bible is literally (word by word) true, that it is an accurate description of historical facts.
    I think your definition of "literal" and mine in this context are different. "Literal" can have different meanings, including yours:

    From thefreedictionary.com:

    lit·er·al Pronunciation (ltr-l)
    adj.
    1. Being in accordance with, conforming to, or upholding the exact or primary meaning of a word or words.
    2. Word for word; verbatim: a literal translation.
    3. Avoiding exaggeration, metaphor, or embellishment; factual; prosaic: a literal description; a literal mind.
    4. Consisting of, using, or expressed by letters: literal notation.
    5. Conforming or limited to the simplest, nonfigurative, or most obvious meaning of a word or words.

    I am following definition 3, "avoiding exaggeration, metaphor, or embellishment". In interpreting the bible, I believe it is "literally" true and not just legends or stories. For example,

    1. Adam and Eve were real people in the Garden of Eden, and that this wasn't a metaphor;
    2. The flood happened, somehow, and it wasn't a metaphor;
    And most importantly:
    3. Christ acted as the savior of mankind, by really atoning for our sins, really dying on the cross, and by really being ressurected.

    If you believe the bible is literally true, you do not refer to science, because science (biology, evolution, etc.) totally contradicts e.g. the genesis.
    Not true. The Bible is a source of truth. So is knowledge obtained through science. They are both valuable, and life would be incomplete without either source.

    Do you live in the US? 60 % of the US citizens believe the story of Noah is literally, word by word, true. That's extremely weird for me, given how weird the story of Noah is, and how full of contradictions.
    Again, I believe people are using different interpretations of "literal".
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  17. #157  
    Quote Originally Posted by clulup
    Do you live in the US? 60 % of the US citizens believe the story of Noah is literally, word by word, true. That's extremely weird for me, given how weird the story of Noah is, and how full of contradictions.
    Well .... I don't live in a "red" state of the US! Do blue states count as the US anymore?

    The fight against evolution is not fundamentalist (although they use the label); it's an aberration.
    You're right - the dictionary definition of fundamentalism is:
    the interpretation of every word in the sacred texts as literal truth

    A fundamentalist is someone who believes the bible to hold literal truths - as long as they keep their beliefs (and practices) to themselves that is fine. But the moment they try to impose their beliefs on the rest of society (politically or otherwise), then they are fanatics or zealots - and in theory on the same level as Nazi's or Al qaeda - except that they have not resorted to violence (at least not yet).
    Palm m505 -> Treo600 (GSM ATT) -> Treo650 (Cingular) -> BB8700g -> BB Pearl
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  18. #158  
    Quote Originally Posted by chillig35
    But the moment they try to impose their beliefs on the rest of society (politically or otherwise), then they are fanatics or zealots - and in theory on the same level as Nazi's or Al qaeda - except that they have not resorted to violence (at least not yet).
    Sorry, but that is the stupidest statement I have heard in a LOOOOOONG time.

    How 'bout this statement: Everybody who lives in your house is the same as Al qaeda or Hitler, except that they haven't resorted to violence (at least not yet). That statement is equally stupid, and has the same amount of truth in it.

    What about the political party you don't agree with? They "try to impose their beliefs on the rest of society". Are they Nazis too (the non-violent kinds)?

    I know, everybody who is different than us, lets call them Nazis too! Heeey, I know you your real name, chillig35! You are **** Durbin!

    Dang, there are Nazis everywhere!!! Everywhere, I say!
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  19. #159  
    Hey everyone, don't in the next election. You might be trying to impose your will, "politically or otherwise" as chilling says, on other people. Then some might call you a Nazi!
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  20. #160  
    heberman
    perhaps you need to spend a wee bit more time reading and comprehending before blasting out your witty riposte

    perhaps you need to look up the meaning of the words impose, fanatic, zealot?

    Next time i will use small simple words for your benefit
    Palm m505 -> Treo600 (GSM ATT) -> Treo650 (Cingular) -> BB8700g -> BB Pearl
    "The point of living and of being an optimist, is to be foolish enough to believe the best is yet to come."
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