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  1. #261  
    Quote Originally Posted by AlaskanDad
    I just do not accept "Malaria" as having the power to "select" populations just as I don't see hammers having the power to set nails.
    It's not malaria that has the power. Those affected by malaria die and/or have less offspring.

    Think a puddle of water. The lower part of the puddle PRECISELY fits the ground, no matter how complex the surface of the soil may be. The upper part is perfectly smooth (in the absence of wind etc.). But all of that is just the result of a very simple and mundane power, gravity.
    “Reality is that which, when you stop believing in it, doesn't go away.” (Philip K. ****)
  2. #262  
    Here is another example of "random" forces of nature "selecting" for an apparently orderly pattern.

    On many beaches or shorelines you may notice distinct orderly pebble formations that appear to have been "sieved" according to size. You will see most of the larger pebbles clustered as a band, followed by medium sized pebbles and then finally by the smallest pebble bands - all neatly sorted out and laid out on the beach. This is a completely natural phenomenon - where the force of the waves (ie. the "selection" pressure) carries the lighter smaller (i.e the inherent "traits") pebbles further out than the heavier larger pebbles. There is no conscious sorting mechanism except for the blind forces of nature that carry this out - yet to an observer it may look like these pebble striations were deliberately "designed" that way.
    Palm m505 -> Treo600 (GSM ATT) -> Treo650 (Cingular) -> BB8700g -> BB Pearl
    "The point of living and of being an optimist, is to be foolish enough to believe the best is yet to come."
  3. #263  
    Quote Originally Posted by chillig35
    Here is another example of "random" forces of nature "selecting" for an apparently orderly pattern.

    On many beaches or shorelines you may notice distinct orderly pebble formations that appear to have been "sieved" according to size. You will see most of the larger pebbles clustered as a band, followed by medium sized pebbles and then finally by the smallest pebble bands - all neatly sorted out and laid out on the beach. This is a completely natural phenomenon - where the force of the waves (ie. the "selection" pressure) carries the lighter smaller (i.e the inherent "traits") pebbles further out than the heavier larger pebbles. There is no conscious sorting mechanism except for the blind forces of nature that carry this out - yet to an observer it may look like these pebble striations were deliberately "designed" that way.
    By the tenor of your message, I take it that you think I believe that God sits in Heaven and designs everything minute by minute. He must decide that Pebble X239491D (He knows them all by name) must be placed at Latitude 67.35 and Longitude 45.32 at precisely 6:35 PM. Then, Pebble X....

    Instead, I read your example as God using his moon to move his waves to move the smaller pebbles farther than the larger pebbles because of their size according to the erosion he caused over time. Most of his work is measurable and predictable according to the rules we've noticed over time. However (as you've pointed out before) we don't have the ability to precisely predict where Pebble X239491D is going to end up on the beach. Since we have decided that we can't know it, you call it a natural phenomenon. I'm in awe when I see how complicated and detailed God can be with the world he's created.

    With all intended friendliness, I believe we're at the Po-tay-toe / Po-tah-toe moment.

    You and I see the same things. You understand the science caused by the science. I understand the same science caused by God.

    Quote from Clulup:
    Those affected by malaria die and/or have less offspring.
    Oh, I see!!! Malaria is a disease! I'm sorry, this must have made more sense when you were thinking about it than how it reads.
    Recognizing that I volunteered...
  4. #264  
    Quote Originally Posted by AlaskanDad
    You and I see the same things. You understand the science caused by the science. I understand the same science caused by God.
    I don't know who/what caused "science" (who or what led to the laws of nature). Personally, I don't think there is a god behind it, others think differently, no problem. But regardless of who or what you think caused it, you can observe it in action. An open and honest examination of the facts shows that evolution does and did take place.
    “Reality is that which, when you stop believing in it, doesn't go away.” (Philip K. ****)
  5. #265  
    Quote Originally Posted by AlaskanDad

    With all intended friendliness, I believe we're at the Po-tay-toe / Po-tah-toe moment.

    You and I see the same things. You understand the science caused by the science. I understand the same science caused by God.
    As long as you don't spell it potatoE

    But seriously ....
    I did not mean to imply that you were implying that God was a micromanager.
    The implication was that the laws of nature obey a consistent pattern that can be discerned by scientific enquiry.
    Here is what I believe - assuming that God is not a micromanager - but a Grand Designer - then God created (or caused) a set of conditions and physical laws - that led to the creation of the universe and possible life on earth. These laws are consistent (not arbitarily changing upon God's whim) and I don't believe that we have been endowed with intelligence and curiousity just to be told that certain phenomenon are "off limits" to enquiry. Perhaps God "knows" that the pebbles will come out in a particular arrangement - but he does not control the forces that lead to that arrangment directly - he just sets the entire universe and all its laws in motion and this is the outcome that only God has foreseen. Similarly God probably "knew" that someday human intelligence would arise from the primordial slime - but again God did not control the individual steps of evolution, but rather just set the conditions of the universe up and the laws that govern it, and let it all happen. This is slightly different from what you're saying (if I understand you correctly) since you imply that God may "nudge" things along to get to a desired point - and that we humans may not be able to discern that aspect.
    Palm m505 -> Treo600 (GSM ATT) -> Treo650 (Cingular) -> BB8700g -> BB Pearl
    "The point of living and of being an optimist, is to be foolish enough to believe the best is yet to come."
  6. #266  
    I just couldn't resist not posting this here:

    Quote Originally Posted by HobbesIsReal
    .



    Please continue your discussion now....my interruption is over...for time being at least!
  7. #267  
    and the rebuttal ... (click the link to see the animated version)

    Palm m505 -> Treo600 (GSM ATT) -> Treo650 (Cingular) -> BB8700g -> BB Pearl
    "The point of living and of being an optimist, is to be foolish enough to believe the best is yet to come."
  8. #268  
    Even though I am obviously religious, I don't like the extremes on both sides.....especially when they use one argument or the other as an excuse for political gains.
  9. #269  
    Hobbes
    I agree - though in this case it is pretty one sided. A lot of scientists who are also Republicans, are quite embarassed by the resurrection of this fanatical "rewriting" of science.
    In fact your cartoon is ironic because just 80 years ago John Scopes was put on trial for daring to teach evolution in class. Today there are no witch-hunts for creationists but if the fanatics have their way, they would nail all scientists who dare to teach science.

    Palm m505 -> Treo600 (GSM ATT) -> Treo650 (Cingular) -> BB8700g -> BB Pearl
    "The point of living and of being an optimist, is to be foolish enough to believe the best is yet to come."
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