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  1.    #1  
    Tommorrow is 60 years since the liberation of Auschwitz.
    BBC Coverage
    More BBC
    We must never forget.
  2. #2  
    Quote Originally Posted by Expat
    Tommorrow is 60 years since the liberation of Auschwitz.
    BBC Coverage
    More BBC
    We must never forget.
    Guantanamo and Abu Ghraib ... we need to remember, lest we repeat the mistakes of the past.
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  3. #3  
    Quote Originally Posted by tjd414
    Guantanamo and Abu Ghraib ... we need to remember, lest we repeat the mistakes of the past.
    You have the audacity to equate Guantanamo and Abu Ghraib to Auschwitz?

    WOW!
    Well behaved women rarely make history
  4. #4  
    Quote Originally Posted by clairegrrl
    You have the audacity to equate Guantanamo and Abu Ghraib to Auschwitz?

    WOW!
    It's a stretch today. But if left unchecked, humans have the capability of incredible levels of abuse. So, we must be vigiliant not to allow Guantanamo and Abu Ghraib to travel down that continuum.
  5. #5  
    Quote Originally Posted by shopharim
    It's a stretch today. But if left unchecked, humans have the capability of incredible levels of abuse. So, we must be vigiliant not to allow Guantanamo and Abu Ghraib to travel down that continuum.
    Well I guess that many people can't see this. It wasn't meant to be an analogy, but merely pointing to an indicator of what may happen if we do not keep a close eye on things such as this.
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  6. #6  
    Wow... moral equivalency at its finest!
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  7. #7  
    Quote Originally Posted by shopharim
    It's a stretch today. But if left unchecked, humans have the capability of incredible levels of abuse. So, we must be vigiliant not to allow Guantanamo and Abu Ghraib to travel down that continuum.
    I agree with shopharim here.

    Its clearly not comparable at all to Auschwitz, and trivializing Abu Girab is no way to defend anyone's politics.
    Last edited by cellmatrix; 01/27/2005 at 11:54 AM.
  8. #8  
    Quote Originally Posted by gfunkmagic
    Wow... moral equivalency at its finest!
    gfunk -- I'm confused by this comment, but that's really not uncommon for me these days.
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  9. #9  
    It's a stretch today. But if left unchecked, humans have the capability of incredible levels of abuse. So, we must be vigiliant not to allow Guantanamo and Abu Ghraib to travel down that continuum.
    Thank you for saying it.

    There are many other atrocities on the scale of Auschwitz which have occured since, we need to acknowledge our failure to address those and strive to do better in the future.
  10. #10  
    Quote Originally Posted by clairegrrl
    You have the audacity to equate Guantanamo and Abu Ghraib to Auschwitz?

    WOW!
    I am not equating these at all. But the victors get to write the history.

    The beginnings of Auschwitz were not the camps but rather segregating people into distinct areas, taking away basic rights and enforcing it with military forces. Later, as the populations became more difficult to manage, they were moved to the camps. And the horrors began. We, as a society, need to ensure we do not choose to ignore this as the German population did 60 years ago.

    We called the French Resistance (and other groups) "partisans" or "freedom fighters" during WWII. I'm quite sure the Germans may have called them "terrorists." We provided money, troops and supplies to ensure they had the most effect possible. As a result of our actions, the Germans were determined to hunt them down and kill them. Doesn't the same apply to the situation in Iraq? Doesn't the language sound familiar?

    With elections in Iraq looming this weekend, several questions come to mind and what is the contingency for dealing with the results of the election? What if, by some absolutely absurd fluke, the Iraqis elect Saddam Hussein as president? What if they elect a fundamentalist Islamic regime aligned with Iran? A real possibility, imo.

    Will we call the elections invalid thereby nullifying our claim to bring democracy to the region? Will we leave or be forced to leave? Will it have been worth the lives of over 1300 US Soldiers if we get kicked out because of the elections we placed our bets on, even if the "wrong" people (noted above) are elected?

    The prison scandals/issues are just one piece of the pie. Looking at things in the whole, the election process in Iraq could be worse than we think. This whole scenario puts the US, one of the greatest countries in the world imo, into a hole it may take decades to get out of. And one we will look back on, just like Vietnam, and say, maybe that really wasn't such a good idea, after all.
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  11. #11  
    umm... people, comparing auschwitz to abu graib is absolutely ridiculous. critics of current administrations are always trying to draw parallels with current affairs and the most heinous tragedies in history.

    we're not locking up millions of people into prison camps here.

    how preposterous! but hey, go ahead. whatever. if you believe this stuff, I got a great bridge to sell ya.
  12. #12  
    Quote Originally Posted by treobk214
    umm... people, comparing auschwitz to abu graib is absolutely ridiculous. critics of current administrations are always trying to draw parallels with current affairs and the most heinous tragedies in history.

    we're not locking up millions of people into prison camps here.

    how preposterous! but hey, go ahead. whatever. if you believe this stuff, I got a great bridge to sell ya.
    There is no comparison with Auschwitz, you are absolutely right Treobk.

    But Abu Girab is something I would never want to try to sweep under the rug in the name of politics. Whatever policies that enabled this sick human behavior to run rampant and smear the US image around the world needs to be fully investigated and corrected. This should be in the interests of republicans and democrats.
    Last edited by cellmatrix; 01/27/2005 at 06:42 PM.
  13. #13  
    that behavior IS being punished. it is BY NO MEANS being tolerated, so there is really no need to worry about anyone letting this run rampant - it won't. the heat that has been focused prevents it from EVER being swept under the rug.
    no one condones this, and we do not live in the type of civilization where treatment of people in this manner is permitted. we just don't. and this is evident when we see what is happening to those involved in the abuse.

    so people, please, there is absolutely no need to arouse fears of something like auschwitz from EVER happening again, whether it be in iraq or anywhere else where the US is involved. statements like those are sensationalistic and really very much out of the realm of possibility.
    let's not unnecessarily over-dramatize problems which are being properly dealt with as it is already, alright?
    Last edited by treobk214; 01/27/2005 at 10:38 PM.
  14. Talldog's Avatar
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    #14  
    If people are really worried about another Auschwitz, they should be looking at the rising tide of anti-semitic violence in supposedly civilized Europe.
    Talldog
  15. #15  
    Quote Originally Posted by Talldog
    If people are really worried about another Auschwitz, they should be looking at the rising tide of anti-semitic violence in supposedly civilized Europe.
    And also into the anti-muslim violence/discrimination both in Europe and the US
    <IMG WIDTH="200" HEIGHT="50" SRC=http://www.visorcentral.com/images/visorcentral.gif> (ex)VisorCentral Discussion Moderator
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  16. #16  
    I think the US has very good relations with muslims in the US. there were some isolated incidents here and there, but for the most part they were just that - isolated.
    id hardly call what's going on in america anti-muslim. for the sweeping majority here, muslims are being treated and protected very well. its inappropriate to insist on stressing that theres' problem with this when in TRUTH it isn't nearly as dramatic as is being claimed here.

    overdramatizing things I think.
  17. #17  
    talldog is right. if you want to throw this fear of auschwitz into someone's face, you go to the french, and have this discussion. mr sharon recommended jews living in france to leave that country at one point this year because of the RAMPANT ANTI-SEMITISM there.
    we are not in that state of affairs!!

    if you want to get onto thus tirade with somebody, apply it where appropriate, not to the US where the problem doesn't exist!

    its funny that no one chastizes the french for this anti-semitism isn't it? amazing. but america, one of the most tolerant nations, is chosen to be chastized, right?

    unbelievable.
  18. #18  
    Quote Originally Posted by treobk214
    but america, one of the most tolerant nations.
    Don't know if your non-wasp fellow country-men agree with you on that..

    My indian collegue who lives in NJ was telling me that people are definately treating him different after 9-11 (think he is a arab muslim prob. )

    Also I've seen some remarks here that make me doubt you bold statement..
    It probably is in the top 10, but I doubt it made the top 3...
    <IMG WIDTH="200" HEIGHT="50" SRC=http://www.visorcentral.com/images/visorcentral.gif> (ex)VisorCentral Discussion Moderator
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  19. #19  
    and by the way, you're so concerned with anti-muslim sentiments in america?


    what do you have to say for all of the HATE- AMERICA, HATE CHRISTIANS, HATE JEW propoganda being spread around inside US. mosques?!!

    huh? why don't you lecture THEM about being fair to US!!!

    the door swings BOTH ways, folks. if you don't want anti-muslim feelings going on, then you address the anti-american sentiments not only in europe, but inside US as well! let's be fair to EVERYONE here.
  20. #20  
    cellmatrix, here In nj, remember, this is where 9/11 affected everyone DIRECTLY.

    nearly everyone I know at least knew or met someone who was killed that day. so if your friend has been treated differently, you have to consider the fact that many wounds are still healing. and no matter how forgiving or tolerant you are, when you are SO CLOSE to something that horrific, trust and brotherhood just doesn't miraculously happen overnight. we are human. not perfect. so we are sometimes still influenced by emotions still swirling as a result of great loss - so its not surprising about your friend in nj.
    hey, do you honestly think that if some oklahoma city-like bombing happened in some other nation at the hand of some extreme american, that particular nation would be instantly willing to be 100% trusting with us?

    id say for the severity of what happened, despite noticing a difference in how he is treated, relatively speaking his situation is not NEARLY as bad as what it would be if you examine how the jews are being treated in france.

    look into that, cellmatrix
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