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  1.    #1  
    Organization against religious persecution http://www.har-tzion.com
  2. vw2002's Avatar
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    #2  
    I cannot compliment this man enough for the depth of his character in addressing such an enormous problem.
    I agree with him in that it is completetly and utterly wrong for any religion to condemn another simply because it is different.
    in my view, I always thought all religions had, as the whole point of their organization, the love and acceptance and tolerance of all people as they are our brothers and sisters.
    growing up, religion to me meant teaching each other to love each other, not to hate. and the very fact that religions condemn other religions as evil simply due to difference COMPLETELY invalidates that religion.
    COMPLETELY INVALIDATES IT!!

    as this person said, everyone is different. everyone has a different understanding of what is sacred to them, whether that be the presence or absence of a god.
    as long as these people are good, THAT IS ALL THAT MATTERS. at the end of all things, as long as people live good, benevolent lives, that is all that matters.

    you can't condemn a good person bc he or she believes differently. anyone who does this is a preposterous fool - any religion which does this is a preposterously delusional and sick organization.
    in america, I know our nation to be one which fights to preserve the rights of ALL RELIGIONS to practice as they choose. this is the VERY BASIS UPON WHICH AMERICA WAS FOUNDED. so while we fight our enemies, I truly hope this person doesn't take america to be some nation of idiots weilding hammers simply to destroy.
    it would be wonderful to join with those of varying beliefs in harmony to build intelligently a level of existence where we are all each others' brothers and sisters.

    THIS IS SUPPOSED TO BE WHAT RELIGION IS ABOUT!

    while I certainly agree that religious persecution occurs far too often, I hope that this person realizes that america is fighting extremists so that everyone may be free to live with each other without having to live under the hammer of some idiotic, vicious dictator.
    Last edited by vw2002; 01/22/2005 at 11:50 PM.
  3. #3  
    Quote Originally Posted by vw2002
    ...you can't condemn a good person bc he or she believes differently. anyone who does this is a preposterous fool - any religion which does this is a preposterously delusional and sick organization....
    hmmm. I take it the designations "preposterous fool" and "delusional and sick" are not considered condemning
  4. #4  
    Quote Originally Posted by shopharim
    hmmm. I take it the designations "preposterous fool" and "delusional and sick" are not considered condemning

    let me spell this out. anyone who discriminates is a preposterous fool. would you not agree that a bigot or a racist or a kkk member is a preposterous fool?

    would you not, shopharim, condemn such a person? your question is truly baffling especially when the situation is a no-brainer

    its one thing to believe differently, as long as whatever you believe, despite its difference with another belief system, preserves the rights of others, correct? thus, you cannot condemn someone simply because they believe differently.

    BUT shopharim, if that person, in his differing belief system, innately disrespects or threatens the equal rights of another person, isnt that person worthy of being criticized? THAT IS MY POINT.

    why must we get into arguments which are so mind-numbingly obvious?! this is ridiculous!

    Last edited by treobk214; 01/28/2005 at 01:11 PM.
  5. #5  
    "Jewish Orthodoxy in Israel has little tolerance for some non-Orthodox Jews, let alone other religions"

    and i have a problem with this, just to say the least. if they cant respect other religions, no respect is turned their way as well.

    who the hell are they to believe this way?
  6. #6  
    First off, my post was intended to highlight the irony in the pair of statements I quoted. In the first sentence the declaration is made, "you can't condemn a good person bc he or she believes differently." The next sentence goes on to call a person who does so a preposterous fool; organizations, delusional and sick.

    Declaring one a "preposterous fool" because of what they believe seems to be a form of the condemnation that was being decried.

    Quote Originally Posted by treobk214
    let me spell this out. anyone who discriminates is a preposterous fool. would you not agree that a bigot or a racist or a kkk member is a preposterous fool?

    would you not, shopharim, condemn such a person?
    For believing differently? Does not the bigot have a right to his or her bigotry? Is not the racist entitled to his or her sense of superiority? Is not the kkk member entitled to his or her choice of associations?

    Quote Originally Posted by treobk214
    your question is truly baffling especially when the situation is a no-brainer

    its one thing to believe differently, as long as whatever you believe, despite its difference with another belief system, preserves the rights of others, correct? thus, you cannot condemn someone simply because they believe differently.
    Oh, you have already answered. They are entitled to their beliefs. But, wait?....If that is so,..... then.... the bigot, racist and kkk member should all be preserved from condemnation, no? At least unless and until they act on their beliefs in a manner no longer "preserves the rights of others."

    Quote Originally Posted by treobk214
    BUT shopharim, if that person, in his differing belief system, innately disrespects or threatens the equal rights of another person, isnt that person worthy of being criticized? THAT IS MY POINT.
    Oh, again, you alread answered.

    Point taken.

    Why not, though, criticize them on the fallacy of their assumptions rather than condemn them on the basis of their conclusion?

    The fact of the matter is, regardless of how obviously misguided you or I find them to be, they have come to their belief system based on some combination of experiences. And, your or my condemnation of them without addressing how they came to believe as they do does nothing towards winning them over (which would seem to be a more desirous outcome than the mere satisfaction of logging another condemnation on the self-righteous scoreboard).
    Last edited by shopharim; 01/28/2005 at 03:09 PM.
  7. #7  
    I think there is some misunderstanding involved here. Being Jewish is not primarily defined by what somebody believes, it has less to do with religion than with being part of the Jewish people (by descent).

    Believing in the principles of Judaism does not make one a Jew, while somebody who does NOT believe in the principles of Judaism (e.g. does not believe in God) can still be a Jew. Being Jewish means, in the traditional definition, being born from a Jewish mother. I found this article interesting and informative in this respect: "Those not born to a Jewish mother may become accepted as Jews by the Orthodox and Conservative movements through a formal and usually difficult process of conversion, and they and their children are then accepted as Jews as well. This is still relatively rare, and typically discouraged."

    The question whether somebody is Jewish or not also has political and legal dimensions in Israel, e.g. concerning the the question who is allowed to immigrate and acquire citizenship, or regarding marriages and divorces.
    “Reality is that which, when you stop believing in it, doesn't go away.” (Philip K. ****)
  8. #8  
    shopharim, you asked if a bigot has the right to be a bigot.

    well of course he or she does. but if you decide to be a bigot, while you have the freedom to do so, you must also be ready to accept the consequences of that choice.

    and those consequences, because the bigot chooses to denigrate the rights of others different from himself, are severe.

    now, you can try to win a person of this mindset over with varying degrees of intelligent reasoning, thoughtful examples and a LOT of patience, but in many cases this is a change in choice once again that you nor I could convince the person to make.

    you can call it scoring points on the self-righteous scoreboard if you like, I simply regard it as calling it like it is.

    your welcome to engage such a person in thoughtful debate as to why they are wrong. be my guest. if we could win these people over - that would be fantastic. all one can do is try.
    but what im saying is if a person is so limited in their thinking as to consider no one else but himself as endowed with rights, than I believe you are fighting a losing cause there. only time tells in these cases.
  9. #9  
    Quote Originally Posted by treobk214
    shopharim, you asked if a bigot has the right to be a bigot.

    well of course he or she does. but if you decide to be a bigot, while you have the freedom to do so, you must also be ready to accept the consequences of that choice.

    and those consequences, because the bigot chooses to denigrate the rights of others different from himself, are severe.

    now, you can try to win a person of this mindset over with varying degrees of intelligent reasoning, thoughtful examples and a LOT of patience, but in many cases this is a change in choice once again that you nor I could convince the person to make.

    you can call it scoring points on the self-righteous scoreboard if you like, I simply regard it as calling it like it is.

    your welcome to engage such a person in thoughtful debate as to why they are wrong. be my guest. if we could win these people over - that would be fantastic. all one can do is try.
    but what im saying is if a person is so limited in their thinking as to consider no one else but himself as endowed with rights, than I believe you are fighting a losing cause there. only time tells in these cases.

    I won't speak for shopharim, but what you're expousing is a little dis-jointed. Basically you're saying "it's wrong to be intolerant and I won't tolerate it (intolerance)". By definition all religions are intolerant of other religions, simply from the point that they (pick one) believe thay are right and others are wrong. Just as an atheist, by definition, is intolerant of any one who believes in a god, or gods. Everyone is prejudiced, everyone has a bias. you're bigotted against bigots!
    "I am a debtor both to Greeks and to Barbarians, both to the wise and to the foolish."
  10. #10  
    Quote Originally Posted by BobbyMike
    I won't speak for shopharim, but what you're expousing is a little dis-jointed. Basically you're saying "it's wrong to be intolerant and I won't tolerate it (intolerance)". By definition all religions are intolerant of other religions, simply from the point that they (pick one) believe thay are right and others are wrong. Just as an atheist, by definition, is intolerant of any one who believes in a god, or gods. Everyone is prejudiced, everyone has a bias....
    Precisely.
  11. #11  
    Quote Originally Posted by clulup
    I think there is some misunderstanding involved here. Being Jewish is not primarily defined by what somebody believes, it has less to do with religion than with being part of the Jewish people (by descent).

    Believing in the principles of Judaism does not make one a Jew, while somebody who does NOT believe in the principles of Judaism (e.g. does not believe in God) can still be a Jew. Being Jewish means, in the traditional definition, being born from a Jewish mother...
    Here Here!

    People ask me what race I am - I say Jewish. They then assume that I am religious. I don't believe in religion. I believe it is the root of all evil. I belive that religion has nothing to do with god and everything to do with mind control.

    But, I also believe in and suppport other people's right to be religious in any way they choose.
  12. #12  
    Quote Originally Posted by larry91403
    Here Here!

    People ask me what race I am - I say Jewish. They then assume that I am religious. I don't believe in religion. I believe it is the root of all evil. I belive that religion has nothing to do with god and everything to do with mind control.

    But, I also believe in and suppport other people's right to be religious in any way they choose.
    Excellent way to live.
    "I am a debtor both to Greeks and to Barbarians, both to the wise and to the foolish."
  13. #13  
    I had a look at the site mentioned in the first post of this thread. I cannot verify the story described on this page, but if it is true, then I really have difficulties understanding it:

    "Thirteen years after Zauda Pisha, 40, immigrated to Israel from Ethiopia in “Operation Solomon”, served the Israeli army and built a family in Israel, has the state recalled that his mother was not Jewish, and he is now arrested and awaits deportation in Maasiyahu prison, due to lack of citizenship.

    But there is not even where to deport Pissha, since his Ethiopian citizenship was automatically cancelled when he immigrated to Israel. Next week he will appeal to the Israeli High Court of Justice against the Ministry of the Interior.
    This is not the only case. Dozens of Ethiopians devoid of citizenship like Pissha are held under arrest, waiting for a solution, and there is no country that is willing to accept them."


    Does anybody know more about it, is it really true? Can a country deport somebody who has served in the army of that country, even if based on better reasons than his mother not being a member of the correct "people"?

    I also find it quite strange that apparently the Israeli identity cards mention the "nationality" of the holder, with some having the nationality "Jew" and others "Ethopian" or something else... if all Israeli have the same rights, what's the point in mentioning those differences?
    Last edited by clulup; 02/02/2005 at 10:12 AM.
    “Reality is that which, when you stop believing in it, doesn't go away.” (Philip K. ****)
  14. #14  
    everyone is prejudiced, everyone has a bias. you're bigotted against bigots"

    you know, you guys are the ultimate paradox. there is nothing you won't try to spin around into some form of attack.

    ok, bobbymike. let's break this down. you say im bigotted against bigots.
    how many times have you people attacked others for anti-muslim sentiments, or intolerance or abuse to prisoners of war?

    I can answer that for you. COUNTLESS times.
    so are YOU saying then that YOU are by definition bigots against republicans or those who abuse prisoners or those who seek to spread democracy throughout iraq?

    what kind of stupid argument are you trying like hell to scratch together here? how do your own statements here seriously?

    you would say yourself that it is wrong for christians to impose their christmas music on everyone, so does that sentiment, therefore, make you bigots against christian music?
    does your intolerance of george w bush make you a bigot against the bush administration?

    I merely support what I would think many liberals would clamor for - equal rights for all and prevention of any race from condemning others simply because they are different - are you saying the aclu are nothing but a bunch of bigots then?

    you are making ridiculous points here rather than credible ones - its all just about trying to make arguments - even when you would have been the first to cry me a river when you heard that some muslim was condemned as evil simply because they believe differently from christians.

    its not a test of logic here, this is an exercise in stupidity.
  15. #15  
    Quote Originally Posted by treobk214
    everyone is prejudiced, everyone has a bias. you're bigotted against bigots"

    you know, you guys are the ultimate paradox. there is nothing you won't try to spin around into some form of attack.

    ok, bobbymike. let's break this down. you say im bigotted against bigots.
    how many times have you people attacked others for anti-muslim sentiments, or intolerance or abuse to prisoners of war?

    I can answer that for you. COUNTLESS times.
    so are YOU saying then that YOU are by definition bigots against republicans or those who abuse prisoners or those who seek to spread democracy throughout iraq?

    what kind of stupid argument are you trying like hell to scratch together here? how do your own statements here seriously?

    you would say yourself that it is wrong for christians to impose their christmas music on everyone, so does that sentiment, therefore, make you bigots against christian music?
    does your intolerance of george w bush make you a bigot against the bush administration?

    I merely support what I would think many liberals would clamor for - equal rights for all and prevention of any race from condemning others simply because they are different - are you saying the aclu are nothing but a bunch of bigots then?

    you are making ridiculous points here rather than credible ones - its all just about trying to make arguments - even when you would have been the first to cry me a river when you heard that some muslim was condemned as evil simply because they believe differently from christians.

    its not a test of logic here, this is an exercise in stupidity.
    Ease off the trigger, Kemo Sabe. You don't know me so I'll refrain from laughing.

    FYI I'm a Pentecostal (Assemblies of God), Rifle owning, USMC veteran, totally supporting the war effort, conservative Republican with a picture of Laura and G.W. on my fridge, who believes the Bible is God's word and Jesus is my savior and while He loves everybody, including sinners, He doesn't love, or condone, sinning.

    The point was making is that to watch what you say. You were coming off as intolerant and judgemental. The same things you were railing against. You're railing against "you guys" is silly when aimed at me, as I'm a "me" - not a "you guys". I'll say it again, everyone has a bias, everyone is predjudiced, everyone's a bigot. That means you, that means me, that means the little old lady down the street. It's part of our human failing. I apologize if I offended you. Wasn't my intention.

    I, through my church, work with young criminals (murderers, rapists, etc.) who are looking at life in prison. I could easily condemn them for the very discriminatory actions they took against others in the past. I choose to rise above my prejudices in order that I might help them achieve a lasting relationship with Christ. It really blesses a person and put's life's little annoyances in perspective when you see a young kid looking at 60+ in an institution utterly filled to the bursting with joy because he has a personal relationship with Christ and is allowed to worship loudly.

    I feel I get the better end of the deal, that I'm more blessed.

    Once again, sorry if I struck a nerve.

    Michael
    "I am a debtor both to Greeks and to Barbarians, both to the wise and to the foolish."
  16. #16  
    BobbyMike, long time no see. How's the wife?
    “There are four boxes to be used in defense of liberty: soap, ballot, jury, and ammo. Please use in that order.”
    — Ed Howdershelt
    "A government big enough to give you everything you want, is big enough to take away everything you have."- Thomas Jefferson
  17. #17  
    Quote Originally Posted by clulup
    [I]"Thirteen years after Zauda Pisha, 40, immigrated to Israel from Ethiopia in “Operation Solomon”, served the Israeli army and built a family in Israel, has the state recalled that his mother was not Jewish, and he is now arrested and awaits deportation in Maasiyahu prison, due to lack of citizenship....
    ...Does anybody know more about it, is it really true? Can a country deport somebody who has served in the army of that country, even if based on better reasons than his mother not being a member of the correct "people"?
    I tried verifying this story to no avail but i will continue checking into this.
    Quote Originally Posted by clulup
    I also find it quite strange that apparently the Israeli identity cards mention the "nationality" of the holder, with some having the nationality "Jew" and others "Ethopian" or something else... if all Israeli have the same rights, what's the point in mentioning those differences?
    This is an issue I have a problem with, and for the longest time. Indeed on my Israeli ID card it is written "Jewish" as nationality (instead of "Israeli") . I absolutely hate the fact that Israel is still requiring such bogus information on ID cards. As mentioned in one of the posts here, it is the Orthodox Jewish parties in the current Likkud coalition that have so much clout over such decisions. Another dumbfound decision those parties have control over is that no Israeli airline can fly on Saturday, thus losing millions of dollars. Go figure.
    I have never let my schooling interfere with my education.
    -Mark Twain
  18. #18  
    Quote Originally Posted by Chick-Dance
    So being an atheist my ID card would say what?
    godless infidel

  19. #19  
    Come now. Let's all drink kool-aid and forget this silly banter.
    -Joshua
    I've decided to become enigmatic.
  20. #20  
    Quote Originally Posted by ****-richardson
    Come now. Let's all drink kool-aid and forget this silly banter.
    The Captain doesnt drink KoolAid, does he??
    Well behaved women rarely make history
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