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  1. #101  
    Quote Originally Posted by clulup
    It's a huge assumption that an Indian in rural India has never heard of Jesus?

    Maybe today, thanks to radio and TV and newspapers, even in rural India people have heard that there was some prophet named Jesus, and that Christians believe in him.

    But how about 100 or 200 or 1900 years ago? Clearly, then it would have been totally impossible for them to hear about Jesus, let alone develop a belief in him. So, according to Jesus, all of them went to hell... Does that make sense to you?
    My point exactly!
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  2. #102  
    Quote Originally Posted by shopharim
    Is this the time to initiate a discussion about angels? The Bible provides accounts of angels appearing to people.

    Or how about astronomical phenomena? If you read the account of the birth of Jesus, you will see that wise men noticed a star, recognized that a great event was occurring, and set off to see witness the event. They traveled great distance to get there. So much so, that by the time they arrived, as many as two years had passed (hence Herod had the children 2 and younger slain).
    Unless you label TV and the internet as an angel they did a pretty poor job. and even if you do, why did they wait allmost 2000 years??
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  3.    #103  
    Quote Originally Posted by clulup
    So consequently all Non-Christians go to hell?
    Not exactly....some of you may have guessed it, but I'm Catholic. So when I say, the church or the teachings, I'm referring to Catholic teachings and the Catholic Church. (just so you know from some of my arguments come from).

    The Church teaches us that there are three types of baptismals that can get you to heaven. Baptism of water (the normal type), Baptism of blood (those that died in trying to spread the gospel but never was baptised, and Baptism of desire (this one's gonna be harder to explain).

    Baptism of desire pretty much states that "IF" Jesus and the Gospel was brought to you, then you would desire to be baptised (yes, that's the dumbed down version). So the people that died before Jesus was born, are not damned......and the people that are in a remote part of the world are not necessarily damned. But if a missionary comes over and introduces the teachings of Jesus and they still don't desire to know the lord, then I think they may be in trouble. I'm actually in discussions with a deacon in my church about this now, he knows a LOT more on the subject. (a deacon in the catholic church is an ordained minister that is one step beneath a Priest....i.e. they can do everything a priest can do except bless the eucharist).
    Last edited by RicoM; 12/17/2004 at 06:54 AM.
  4. #104  
    Quote Originally Posted by RicoM
    Not exactly....some of you may have guessed it, but I'm Catholic. So when I say, the church or the teachings, I'm referring to Catholic teachings and the Catholic Church. (just so you know from some of my arguments come from).

    The Church teaches us that there are three types of baptismals that can get you to heaven. Baptism of water (the normal type), Baptism of blood (those that died in trying to spread the gospel but never was baptised, and Baptism of desire (this one's gonna be harder to explain).
    That's all nice and well, but not really what Jesus said according to the bible. And, frankly, I don't think this is how it was meant by him, after all, what he says is quite clear. To me, the explanation the Catholic church offers looks more like a loophole in order to get out of the dilemma, a way of making the words of Jesus more acceptable - because taken at face value, they directly imply that god sends people to hell without them having done anything wrong.

    However, I notice that you do not seem to claim one should take the bible literally, which is a good thing. Then we can also agree on things like evolution and big bang (as in fact even the Catholic church does). As mentioned elsewhere, a few years ago the Catholic church even appologized for burning Giordano Bruno after he had claimed that earth circles around the moon, that's quite an achievement.
    Last edited by clulup; 12/17/2004 at 08:56 AM.
    “Reality is that which, when you stop believing in it, doesn't go away.” (Philip K. ****)
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    #105  
    I have been reading this thread with much interest. It is good to see healthy debate on such a subject.

    IMHO, it all comes down to one thing, FAITH. There is no person in the past or present that can absolutely with 100% accuracy prove scientifically, mathematically, or by any other means that there is a God, Jesus, Buddha, Muhammad or any other deity. The only thing we can obtain information regarding any deity is from books written and passed down through the ages, book such as the Bible and Koran and other such books.

    It is man’s nature to want to try to understand all of the things around him, including the origin of the world in which he lives and why things have happened and what will happen in the future….this is man’s nature.

    So, since we can’t actually prove it with words, deeds, mathematics, and science or by any other means it all comes down to faith, to believe in something that you can’t touch, feel, or get your hands around. Whether it is in God, Jesus, Buddha, Muhammad, or any other God, it takes faith.

    So, the debate about whether God exists or why there is evil comes down to faith, not a logical or scientific proof.

    In the interest of full disclosure I’ll tell you this…..I am a Christian, born a Catholic, graduated from a Catholic high school. I became a born again believer and accepted Jesus as my savior during college and now am attend the Baptist church. I am an electrical engineer for a power company and follow science.

    I am not going to try and force my beliefs on anyone else, just wanted to put my 2 cents in. Regardless of your “religion” it still comes down to faith, can there be such a thing as a God and do I believe in Him. You can’t prove it by any mean, its just has to be faith.
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  6. #106  
    Quote Originally Posted by clulup
    ...You are just dancing around the issue... Jesus clearly said that only people who believe in him can go to heaven. If this were true, Hindu, Moslems, Buddhists, Jews and any other human being not believing in Jesus (about 2/3 of humanity) could not go to heaven.
    Actually, I'm dancing around your questions trying to see how I can make the position any clearer. You and I have both stated Jesus' claim. And, yes, if His claim is true, then only those who come through Him will gain eternal life.

    Who does that exclude? Everybody else

    The psalmists would insert the command "selah" here

    Quote Originally Posted by clulup
    If that is true, your god is cruel and unjust...
    Perhaps what is missing from this discussion is an understanding of why there is a need for a mediator (Jesus/Y'shua) in the first place.

    My God is holy. Man (capitalized to denote the species not the male gender) is not. Man was at creation. Man rebelled. Man is no longer holy. As such, the relationship between Man and God is hindered; hampered. There is a need for reconciliation.

    NOTE: as a rebel, Man is not entiled to anything but judgment. That would be "just". However, God, not willing to see Man resigned to that end provided a means of reconciliation. That's called "mercy" or "grace" What's "cruel" about that?

    Also, the arguments you offer seem to imply that Hindus, Buddhists, Muslims, .... have not heard about "my god and his son." Perhaps they have and have rejected God and His Son.

    Further, even in the US, which you like to refer to as a christian or at least religious nation, when some "christians" are interviewed, they respond that do not believe that Jesus is the "Only" way to the Father. Yet, we have easily understood in this thread that that is the essential of this belief system called christianity.

    So, I'm not concerned about the religious labels. That's why I'm not using the labels. I'm only concerned with Jesus' claim, and how each individual responds to it.
  7. #107  
    Quote Originally Posted by shopharim
    Actually, I'm dancing around your questions trying to see how I can make the position any clearer. You and I have both stated Jesus' claim. And, yes, if His claim is true, then only those who come through Him will gain eternal life.

    Who does that exclude? Everybody else
    What you are saying is: humans can only go to heaven if they believe in Jesus? Yes or no?
    Last edited by clulup; 12/17/2004 at 09:12 AM.
    “Reality is that which, when you stop believing in it, doesn't go away.” (Philip K. ****)
  8. #108  
    Quote Originally Posted by gacajun
    I have been reading this thread with much interest. It is good to see healthy debate on such a subject.

    IMHO, it all comes down to one thing, FAITH. There is no person in the past or present that can absolutely with 100% accuracy prove scientifically, mathematically, or by any other means that there is a God, Jesus, Buddha, Muhammad or any other deity. The only thing we can obtain information regarding any deity is from books written and passed down through the ages, book such as the Bible and Koran and other such books.

    It is man’s nature to want to try to understand all of the things around him, including the origin of the world in which he lives and why things have happened and what will happen in the future….this is man’s nature.

    So, since we can’t actually prove it with words, deeds, mathematics, and science or by any other means it all comes down to faith, to believe in something that you can’t touch, feel, or get your hands around. Whether it is in God, Jesus, Buddha, Muhammad, or any other God, it takes faith.

    So, the debate about whether God exists or why there is evil comes down to faith, not a logical or scientific proof.

    In the interest of full disclosure I’ll tell you this…..I am a Christian, born a Catholic, graduated from a Catholic high school. I became a born again believer and accepted Jesus as my savior during college and now am attend the Baptist church. I am an electrical engineer for a power company and follow science.

    I am not going to try and force my beliefs on anyone else, just wanted to put my 2 cents in. Regardless of your “religion” it still comes down to faith, can there be such a thing as a God and do I believe in Him. You can’t prove it by any mean, its just has to be faith.
    Thanks for joining in.

    I would offer that while scientific "proof" may not be attainable, the faith one exercises should be a logical conclusion based on the information they have.

    Now if you want to see some dancing around....

    I fully understand why some people reach the conclusion that evolution is the explanation for our origin. It is a plausible explanation. I see the reasoning.

    That said, I believe there are gaps. I believe that the notion of god has been ruled out by assumption rather than by experiment. And, without God, no other explanation gets you very far.
  9. #109  
    Quote Originally Posted by clulup
    What you are saying is: humans can only go to heaven if they believe in Jesus.
    The difficulty with having this discussion in this forum is that it can be difficult to address the nuances.

    As to the summary statement above, yes that is what I'm saying.

    Unfortunately, some are going to read that through their understanding of what it means to believe in Jesus.

    RicoM brought up the notion of desire to believe. While I would need to better understand that belief, I recognize that there is a fundamental issue addressed. For example, we read in the Bible that there were predecessors to Jesus who died "in faith". So, they are said to have believed in Him who had not yet been born.

    So, what was their faith. They were confident in the promise of a mediator. Does that mean they believed in Jesus? I think so. But a logical question would be how could they believe in someone who had not yet been born? That's up to God to sort out.

    Well the same can quite possibly be extrapolated to those born many years after Jesus who have not yet heard of the historical figure, but are aware of the need for a mediator.

    I know. I know. The next question is: How would they become aware of a need? I don't know. There are so many ways God can get messages to people.

    Is that dancing around the issue? Perhaps. But, that's not my intent. If there is inconsistency in my presentation, it is in the nuances; the mechanics; but not the basics; not the essentials.

    And, if that is in doubt, let me be very clear on this point:

    I am not in any way backing away from my Savior. I am not ashamed of the good news about Jesus Christ. It is the power of God for salvation to those that believe. I am very clear that such a stance may cost me popularity. It may cost me friends. I may cost me my very life.

    Each of those risks are small investments compared to the huge debt my Savior paid for me.
  10. #110  
    Does anyone ever stop and think about this? What if "Jesus" didn't make the claims documented in the bible? What if the entity or power that was instilled in to the body that we know to be "Jesus" made these claims. What if that very same entity took human (and possibly non-human) form numerous times among many different cultures over many, many ages. Then would it not be true that no matter your belief system you will still end up in heaven if you seek God?

    My personal belief is that men like Jesus and Mohammed were all shells, or host bodies rather, that were each, at some point, inhabited by the very same entity that God sent forth to teach His children how to find Him.
    .
  11. #111  
    Quote Originally Posted by shopharim
    There are so many ways God can get messages to people.
    This is the true statement ... as I said earlier in this thread, my belief is that God uses different messages and ways to get to different peoples. A true sign of love ... imo, yes.
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  12. #112  
    I wonder, what countries would Jesus bomb?
  13. #113  
    Quote Originally Posted by cellmatrix
    I wonder, what countries would Jesus bomb?
    None.
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  14. #114  
    Yes he would..., bomb them with love that is. =)
    .
  15. #115  
    Quote Originally Posted by skillllllz
    Yes he would..., bomb them with love that is. =)
    Good catch on your part ... I agree!
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  16. #116  
    Quote Originally Posted by shopharim
    It is the power of God for salvation to those that believe. I am very clear that such a stance may cost me popularity. It may cost me friends. I may cost me my very life.
    My goodness, I didn't know the whole thing was that dangerous!!
    “Reality is that which, when you stop believing in it, doesn't go away.” (Philip K. ****)
  17. #117  
    Quote Originally Posted by skillllllz
    Yes he would..., bomb them with love that is. =)
    Jesus for Secretary of Defense!
  18.    #118  
    Quote Originally Posted by skillllllz
    My personal belief is that men like Jesus and Mohammed were all shells, or host bodies rather, that were each, at some point, inhabited by the very same entity that God sent forth to teach His children how to find Him.
    That is directly against what the church states. If that is your personal believe, that's fine....but from my standpoint, that's just plain wrong.

    The Word existed throughout time and the Word became flesh (Jesus).... It's part of that trinity thing....and that's even hard to explain within people of the same faith so I don't think it would be appropriate for this discussion.
  19.    #119  
    Quote Originally Posted by clulup
    To me, the explanation the Catholic church offers looks more like a loophole in order to get out of the dilemma, a way of making the words of Jesus more acceptable - because taken at face value, they directly imply that god sends people to hell without them having done anything wrong.
    And that goes against the church's teachings.....the teaching that God is a merciful and loving God. What was said earlier is not going against what Jesus said, it's the explanation of what Jesus said by the church....read my next comment before you react to this statement...

    Quote Originally Posted by clulup
    However, I notice that you do not seem to claim one should take the bible literally, which is a good thing.
    This is where the church comes in....in areas where there arguments come in with what is meant, the church will take an official stance. "What gives the church the right to do this" you may ask? Jesus gave the church this power....
    Quote Originally Posted by Jesus
    "... you are Peter and upon this rock I will build my church.... He added: “I will give you the keys of the kingdom of heaven. Whatever you bind on earth shall be bound in heaven; and whatever you loose on earth shall be loosed in heaven”
    And as you may know, Peter was the first Pope. Catholics believe that under certain circumstances, the Pope can speak "infaliably"....i.e. speaking the gospel truth. And the church stated that you can get to heaven 3 ways....(1)by baptism...(2) baptism through blood...and (3) baptism through desire. (explained earlier)

    Now you can also ask, "how is this getting to heaven through Jesus". Well, what is baptism but the removal of the original sin, or put in other words....redemption of a soul. Well, what did Jesus do, he redeemed all mankind. Getting baptised is going through Jesus.
  20. #120  
    "Originally Posted by Jesus"

    Priceless
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