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  1. #81  
    Quote Originally Posted by Chick-Dance
    Gosh, as an atheist I am lost here.

    Its hard to find a truer statement

    No offense to you personally
  2. #82  
    Quote Originally Posted by Chick-Dance
    And because it said so in the Bible: God exists?
    No. Writing something down does not make it so.

    See responses to some of the frequently asked questions about the reliability/authencity of the Bible here: http://www.equip.org/essentials/index.asp?view=bible
  3. #83  
    Quote Originally Posted by Chick-Dance
    Gosh, as an atheist I am lost here. So much is pointed to “evil is the absence of God,” and since poor me doesn’t believe in God I am in big-time boo-boo. I therefore find some comfort in what cgordonn wrote:
    “1) Tolerance and love is absolute good
    2) intolerance and lack of empathy is absolute evil”
    No mention of God or Bible or quotes, just simple feelings. Faith. Hope.
    (Keep debating though, I truly enjoy reading this thread!)
    I would change this just a tad --

    1) Tolerance and love is absolute good
    2) Intolerance and lack of love is absolute evil

    Empathy can go either way ... good or evil ...

    But Chick, you hit it square on with "Faith. Hope." Let me add "Love."
    << My command as we escape Palm HQ with a new Pre 3>>.

    Treo 300 >> Treo 600 >> Treo 650 >> Treo 755 >> Instinct >> Pre- >> TouchPad
  4. #84  
    Quote Originally Posted by RicoM
    If God does not exist, then the only thing that Christians get is to lead a better life (on average...
    So Christians lead a better life on average? Do you have anything to back this quite daring claim?

    BUT, if God does exist, then those who do not believe in him will spend an eternity in hell.

    Is that the kind of gambling you'd like to do? For the examples that have been given on this forum, God cannot be proven just like he cannot be definatively disproven. Doesn't seem intelligent (in my opinion, no offense meant here) to believe that God doesn't exist when those type of stakes are on the line.
    Speaking about gambling... so you are determined to put all your money on the Christian god, ha? How comes? After all, Christians are a minority in the world, how can you be sure they are right, and not e.g. Hindu or Muslim people?

    Imagine for some reason you would have been brought up in India by Hindu foster parents. By all likelyhood, you would be a Hindu now, and most likely believe in Devi, Vishnu, Ganesh, and Siva (among others) with the same conviction. But you grew up in the US as a Christian, and solely for that reason, you think the Christian god it the right one... maybe you should also be a Buddhist and a Muslim and a Hindu, just to be on the safe side?
    “Reality is that which, when you stop believing in it, doesn't go away.” (Philip K. ****)
  5. #85  
    Quote Originally Posted by tjd414
    ...But Chick, you hit it square on with "Faith. Hope." Let me add "Love."
    It doesn't get any better than the big three
  6. #86  
    Quote Originally Posted by clulup
    So Christians lead a better life on average? Do you have anything to back this quite daring claim?
    I think (at least hope) he meant, that they strive to be better (humble) in thier dealings with others.

    Quote Originally Posted by clulup
    Speaking about gambling... so you are determined to put all your money on the Christian god, ha? How comes? After all, Christians are a minority in the world, how can you be sure they are right, and not e.g. Hindu or Muslim people?

    Imagine for some reason you would have been brought up in India by Hindu foster parents. By all likelyhood, you would be a Hindu now, and most likely believe in Devi, Vishnu, Ganesh, and Siva (among others) with the same conviction. But you grew up in the US as a Christian, and solely for that reason, you think the Christian god it the right one... maybe you should also be a Buddhist and a Muslim and a Hindu, just to be on the safe side?
    God said if you worship a false diety you will suffer the consequences. He didn't provide loop holes (i.e. its what everyone else was doing)
  7. #87  
    Quote Originally Posted by clulup
    ...But you grew up in the US as a Christian, and solely for that reason, you think the Christian god it the right one...
    Can't speak for RicoM, but I don't understand the insistence that people believe what they believe solely based on where they grew up.

    If I were to base my belief in God on my having grown up in the US, surely I would worship at the altars of fame, fortune, popularity, youth, sex, drugs, rock-n-roll.....

    My faith is informed, not just handed-down or imposed.
  8. #88  
    Quote Originally Posted by shopharim
    NOTE: The standard is not christianity. The standard is access through Jesus. Jesus warned his followers that in the day of judgment there would be many who would point to the deeds done in His name as basis for entry. Yet, He says His response to them will be "I never knew you. Depart from me.

    Who is it that would point to deeds done in His name? Christians! So it is not that only Christians will go to heaven. it is only those who come through Jesus.
    I don't see what you are up to... Christians are those who believe in Jesus as the Messiah, so they are the ones who "come through him".
    As to who goes to heaven or hell. It is totally reasonable to me to expect that Jews, Muslims, Hindi Buddhists, Christians, and others will be in heaven.
    It is surprising that you believe this, because it contradicts what Jesus said:

    "Jesus said to him, 'I am the way, and the truth, and the life; no one comes to the Father, but through Me'" (John 14:6)."

    There is more of that sort: "For the Father judges no one, but has committed all judgment to the Son, that all should honor the Son just as they honor the Father. He who does not honor the Son does not honor the Father who sent Him." -- John 5:22,23"

    I guess there is very little space for interpretation, unless you totally twist the meaning of his words: either you believe in Jesus, or you don't go to heaven. Heaven's gate closed for two thirds of humanity, unless Jesus was wrong...

    So what do you think, can Muslims and Jews and members of other religions go to heaven, or do two thirds of humanity go to hell because they don't believe in Jesus?
    “Reality is that which, when you stop believing in it, doesn't go away.” (Philip K. ****)
  9. #89  
    Quote Originally Posted by sxtg
    God said if you worship a false diety you will suffer the consequences. He didn't provide loop holes (i.e. its what everyone else was doing)
    So consequently all Non-Christians go to hell?
    “Reality is that which, when you stop believing in it, doesn't go away.” (Philip K. ****)
  10. #90  
    Quote Originally Posted by clulup
    I guess there is very little space for interpretation, unless you totally twist the meaning of his words: either you believe in Jesus, or you don't go to heaven.
    Precisely!
    Quote Originally Posted by clulup
    Heaven's gate closed for two thirds of humanity
    Nope. Open to all. The choice to enter belongs to each of us.
    Quote Originally Posted by clulup
    , unless Jesus was wrong...
    Then it's a non-issue
  11. #91  
    To "Either you believe in Jesus or you don't go to heaven" you say
    Quote Originally Posted by shopharim
    Precisely!
    But then you say heaven is....
    Open to all. The choice to enter belongs to each of us.
    That is not logical. Most people all over the world don't get to know Jesus because they do not have access to Christian beliefs, but grow up with a different religion. Those who grow up without hearing about Jesus can not go to heaven according to your first statement, but according to you second statement, everybody has a choice to enter heaven. Those points clearly contradict each other... please decide which you think is true, because both cannot be true at the same time.
    “Reality is that which, when you stop believing in it, doesn't go away.” (Philip K. ****)
  12. #92  
    I apologize for confusing the matter. I was dealing with the semantics of terminology such as "Buddhist" "Muslim" "Christian" "Jew" "Agnostic" "Athiest" "Hindu".......

    Thoses terms are just that--terms, labels. The issue is not your label. The issue is how you respond to Jesus (Y'shua).
  13. #93  
    Quote Originally Posted by clulup
    To "Either you believe in Jesus or you don't go to heaven" you sayBut then you say heaven is....
    That is not logical. Most people all over the world don't get to know Jesus because they do not have access to Christian beliefs, but grow up with a different religion. Those who grow up without hearing about Jesus can not go to heaven according to your first statement, but according to you second statement, everybody has a choice to enter heaven. Those points clearly contradict each other... please decide which you think is true, because both cannot be true at the same time.
    Speaking purely logically, there is nothing mutually exclusive about the two statements. One's ignorance of an option does not negate the legitimacy of the option.

    That notwithstanding, and more importantly, the God who appeared to Abraham, Isaac and Jacob, surely can appear to anyone else.

    From our record, Abram (as he was known initially) was of a people that did not honor the God of the Bible. Yet God appeared to him and called him out. Why Abram? I don't know.

    However, a clue can be found in this passage: "Without faith it is impossible to please God. For he that comes to god must believe that He is; and that He is a rewarded of those who diligently seek Him."

    So perhaps, Abram becane dissatisfied with the beliefs of his family. perhaps he was not satisfied with the statues used in religious practices, but sought to know the one whom the statues purported to represent. That "diligent search" may have induced his encounter.

    I don't know. All that I just wrote is pure speculation.

    So, I don't always know how it comes to pass. I don't need to. It is not for me to judge whether anyone has received Jesus or not.

    What I do know is what Jesus claimed. And I am confident in the sources by which I became aware of His claim. And, I have consciously and whole-heartedly staked my very existence on the validity of that claim.

    And, finally, I invite you to take the same bold step of faith I have.
  14. #94  
    A hindu could start with the creation around him/her, and percieving that it had a maker, began to seek to know that maker.
  15. #95  
    Quote Originally Posted by freudov23
    Quote By: shopharim at Today 07:02 PM
    The issue is how you respond to Jesus (Y'shua).

    Sopharim,

    You are writing in circles. How can a hindu in rural India know or respond to yaweh if he has never heard of christianity?

    Thats a HUGE assumption that they haven't!
  16. #96  
    Is this the time to initiate a discussion about angels? The Bible provides accounts of angels appearing to people.

    Or how about astronomical phenomena? If you read the account of the birth of Jesus, you will see that wise men noticed a star, recognized that a great event was occurring, and set off to see witness the event. They traveled great distance to get there. So much so, that by the time they arrived, as many as two years had passed (hence Herod had the children 2 and younger slain).
  17. #97  
    Quote Originally Posted by freudov23
    Quote:
    By: sxtg at Today 04:25 PM

    Thats a HUGE assumption that they haven't!


    sxtg,

    You are right that my example may make an assumption (wouldn't call it huge), but is the scenario impossible? It seems a bit naive to assume that it is.
    If you believe in the word of God, then yes the scenario is impossible.

    Seek and ye shall find
  18. #98  
    Quote Originally Posted by shopharim
    A hindu could start with the creation around him/her, and percieving that it had a maker, began to seek to know that maker.
    You seem to imply that Hindus so far did not start with creation around them, and did not percieve that it had a maker, and did not seek to know that maker....

    Of course and obviously they did just that, only they came to totally different beliefs than Jews and Christians and Muslims, and they have just as much and as little evidence that they are right as you. They also have old books (older than yours even) they think came from god, they also have different sources etc. (what you claim is evidence for the accuracy of the book).

    You are just dancing around the issue... Jesus clearly said that only people who believe in him can go to heaven. If this were true, Hindu, Moslems, Buddhists, Jews and any other human being not believing in Jesus (about 2/3 of humanity) could not go to heaven.

    If that is true, your god is cruel and unjust, because how can it be the fault of a Buddhist nomad in Mongolia that he never heard the name Jesus, therefore doesn't believe in him and how could he possibly be punished for that and not go to heaven for that reason?
    “Reality is that which, when you stop believing in it, doesn't go away.” (Philip K. ****)
  19. #99  
    Quote Originally Posted by sxtg
    Thats a HUGE assumption that they haven't!
    It's a huge assumption that an Indian in rural India has never heard of Jesus?

    Maybe today, thanks to radio and TV and newspapers, even in rural India people have heard that there was some prophet named Jesus, and that Christians believe in him.

    But how about 100 or 200 or 1900 years ago? Clearly, then it would have been totally impossible for them to hear about Jesus, let alone develop a belief in him. So, according to Jesus, all of them went to hell... Does that make sense to you?
    “Reality is that which, when you stop believing in it, doesn't go away.” (Philip K. ****)
  20. #100  
    Explain to me why anyone should believe that the only way to find God or get into Heaven is through some specific method(s) outlined in a book written thousands of years ago by man? Thousands of years ago man thought the world was flat. He also thought the sun revolved around the earth. Throughout history, man has notoriously made assumptions about this percieved life and stuck to them like a complete *****, all the way until non-believers, or shall I say true believers (at that time often refered to as lunatics, infidels, fools) sought out to prove man's assumptions incorrect.

    I look at this way... You will always have people who see the glass as half empty and the people who see it as half full. And they will argue their point to the death. In reality both groups are fools who fail to see what really sits before them... A glass that is always full. Just because they don't see the oxygen which rests in the glass above the water does not mean it's not there filling the glass (even when there's no water in it).
    .
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