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  1. #61  
    Quote Originally Posted by ToolkiT
    Can there be good without god? I certainly think so!
    Cultures without god(s) surely have for example motherly love.. or love in general for that matter..
    That's my point TK ... God just makes his presence known in different ways to different people. Just goes back to the issue of unconditional love and the abscence of love ...
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  2. #62  
    Quote Originally Posted by tjd414
    That's my point TK ... God just makes his presence known in different ways to different people. Just goes back to the issue of unconditional love and the abscence of love ...
    mmmm thats an easy way out isnt it?
    <IMG WIDTH="200" HEIGHT="50" SRC=http://www.visorcentral.com/images/visorcentral.gif> (ex)VisorCentral Discussion Moderator
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  3. #63  
    No, just what I believe. And if we boil this thread down to the basics -- isn't that what it really is about?
    << My command as we escape Palm HQ with a new Pre 3>>.

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  4. #64  
    Quote Originally Posted by ToolkiT
    mmmm thats an easy way out isnt it?

    And equally as easy for you to dismiss... correct?
  5. #65  
    Quote Originally Posted by sxtg
    And equally as easy for you to dismiss... correct?
    Isn't this the absence of the hard way out?
    << My command as we escape Palm HQ with a new Pre 3>>.

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  6. #66  
    Quote Originally Posted by sxtg
    And equally as easy for you to dismiss... correct?
    correct, I don't think god has the monopoly on love, the SEC wouldnt let him
    <IMG WIDTH="200" HEIGHT="50" SRC=http://www.visorcentral.com/images/visorcentral.gif> (ex)VisorCentral Discussion Moderator
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  7. #67  
    Quote Originally Posted by tjd414
    Isn't this the absence of the hard way out?
    LOL
    <IMG WIDTH="200" HEIGHT="50" SRC=http://www.visorcentral.com/images/visorcentral.gif> (ex)VisorCentral Discussion Moderator
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  8. #68  
    Quote Originally Posted by ToolkiT
    There is a problem with that theorie though..
    Why would a person in tibet who's never heard of the bible etc suddenly wake up and think: today I'm going to seek god?

    It is like you suddenly starting to seek GaBuri, the great god of the martians.
    (of course I'm making that last bit up, but you get the point)

    another that I would like to reitterate is what chick said before, is good equal to god? I can go with god being equal to good, but does it work the other way around too? Can there be good without god? I certainly think so!
    Cultures without god(s) surely have for example motherly love.. or love in general for that matter..
    Perhaps this need not be stated, but I will for the record: The religion we call christianity is based on the Bible.

    I point that out because the same Bible that quotes Y'shua's (Jesus') claim of being the only way to God, also points out that people are or will be accountable for how they respond to the truth they know.

    The reality is, I can not even account for whether or not my own wife has accepted Y'shua's claim. I can observe her behavior and the decisions she makes and draw assumptions. But the reality is, the relationship is between her and God. I can share with her and others what is recorded in the text as I understand it. I can hear how they understand it. I can make decisions based on it, and encourage them to do the same. However the determination as to who has accepted it/believed it is between each individual and God.

    The problem that many people run into is that they see the creation and make it their God rather than the creator. (NOTE: I understand that there are those among us who reject or do not hold the notion of god in their belief systems. Obviously, at some point either we will know the truth, or it will be a non-issue). This is one reason why I encourage people to pursue the origin of life. I don't think you can go very far down that path with out bumping into the Creator. If you can, fine. Keep going. Enjoy the trip. Tell us what you are learning so we too can advance down the path.

    I agree with tjd414 in that all will have an opportunity for eternal life. However, I can not agree that it will be based on their accomplishments -- simply because the Bible doesn't support that notion. In fact, the Bible makes it clear no amount of good works can irradicate the bad works that we may have done. So, the issue at hand is not ensuring that the good outweigh the bad (accomplishment), but rather the elimination of the bad record (grace).

    Y'shua (Jesus) is the gift that God has a given as a means of eliminating the bad.

    Now this may prompt a question in your mind similar to the question that arose in Paul's mind: namely, so then is that a license to do whatever we want because we will be forgiven? Absolutely not. It is not a license. It is a safety net. We are to still strive for the best. However, we no longer have to fear the consequences of falling short (which we will). The price tag for falling short (hell), has been paid by a benevolent substitute (Y'shua/Jesus), paving the way to eternal life with God.
    Last edited by shopharim; 12/16/2004 at 09:58 AM.
  9.    #69  
    Jesus also tells the followers of John the Baptist that even though John is the greatest among men, he is still lesser than the least in the kingdom of heaven. (paraphrased)

    What Jesus is saying is this....no matter the good that a man(or woman) does in his life here, he still isn't as deserving as the least person in heaven. Then how do you get to heaven?......only through Jesus.

    Just following up on what shopharim said.
  10. #70  
    Quote Originally Posted by RicoM
    To this the student replied, "Evil does not exist sir, or at least it does not exist unto itself. Evil is simply the absence of
    God. It is just like darkness and cold, a word that man has created to describe the absence of God. God did not create evil. Evil is not like faith or love that exist just as does light and heat. Evil is the result of what happens when man does not have God's love present in his heart. It's like the cold that comes when there is no heat or the darkness that comes when there is no light."

    [/B]
    Very nice wordplay, but little more. If this has been said, I apologise, but I really don't have time to read throught every message here. But if evil is defined as the absence of God, then how do you explain the evil done in the name of God? Take the Crusades, as but one example.

    How do you explain the abuse of children by priests?

    How do you explain the Catholic Church (and most others, for that matter) turning its back on the massacre of the Jews before and during WWII?

    Or good Christian ministers and church-goers supporting the institution of Slavery in America?

    The simple fact is that almost every religion in the world, including Christianity, has used God to justify some of the most heinous acts imaginable.

    Frankly, trying to justify faith by using the trappings of science just makes faith look weak. Faith is about belief, not about proof. If it can be proved (in the logical sense), then it ceases to be faith.
    Bob Meyer
    I'm out of my mind. But feel free to leave a message.
  11. #71  
    Quote Originally Posted by shopharim
    post-mortem apartheid...nice phrase.

    Obviously I did not share all of christian doctrine. Two key promises worth pointing out in light of your concern are:
    1. God rewards those who diligently seek Him
    2. God draws nigh to those who draw nigh to Him

    This works in Tibet, Timbuktu, and Tennessee.
    Ok, now you are backing off from your previous statement, that you can only get to god/heaven through believing in Jesus.

    Here is what Jesus said according to the bible: "Jesus said to him, 'I am the way, and the truth, and the life; no one comes to the Father, but through Me'" (John 14:6)." I don't think anybody ever doubted that "coming to the father" means going to heaven.

    I can see why you are backing off: indeed it is almost impossible to imagine that all Non-Christians cannot go to heaven. In the case of atheists, it is their own "fault" or decision not to believe in god, so it serves them right if they cannot go to heaven.

    But Jews, Muslims, Hindu, Buddhists etc. (the great majority of humans actually) don't believe in Christ, so, according to Jesus, they don't go to heaven, even though it is hardly their fault that they don't believe in Christ.

    So either Jesus was wrong about his assertion that one can only go to heaven through him, or most people go to hell, even if it is not their fault... difficult problem, certainly for those who think the bible is litterally true, which seems to be quite a high proportion of the people in the US.

    My view on this: even IF there is life after death, this life is certainly not open exclusively for Christians, because it would be quite silly and mean of god to send people to hell only because they were born in the wrong (non-christian) place.... So Jesus was wrong when he said only people believing in him can go to heaven, any other explanation does not make sense even within the context of god and heaven existing.
    “Reality is that which, when you stop believing in it, doesn't go away.” (Philip K. ****)
  12. #72  
    Quote Originally Posted by meyerweb
    Very nice wordplay, but little more. If this has been said, I apologise, but I really don't have time to read throught every message here. But if evil is defined as the absence of God, then how do you explain the evil done in the name of God? Take the Crusades, as but one example.

    How do you explain the abuse of children by priests?

    How do you explain the Catholic Church (and most others, for that matter) turning its back on the massacre of the Jews before and during WWII?

    Or good Christian ministers and church-goers supporting the institution of Slavery in America?

    The simple fact is that almost every religion in the world, including Christianity, has used God to justify some of the most heinous acts imaginable.
    Check the thread when (if) you have time. These questions have come up and been discussed
    Quote Originally Posted by meyerweb
    Frankly, trying to justify faith by using the trappings of science just makes faith look weak. Faith is about belief, not about proof. If it can be proved (in the logical sense), then it ceases to be faith.
    Biblical faith does not align with your definition. Biblical faith is confident expectancy for that which is assured but which has not occured.
  13. #73  
    Quote Originally Posted by tjd414
    I however, have the view (and belief and faith as well) that God is a loving God and understands human nature. As such, He will manifest himself in different ways to different peoples to give them the opportunity to come to Him in their own way. So yes, I believe that the poor Buddist, Hindu, Jew and Muslim will the opportunity go to heaven just as every Christian has that opportunity. Even the tribal people that have no exposure to any organized religion will also have the opportunity to go to heaven based soley on how that person has lived his/her life.

    ....

    Heaven is a place filled with love. Nothing else. Hell is the total absence of love. It is your choice.

    So, I believe. I have faith. And I am grateful for it each and every day. You don't have to prove it to me ... I know it exists.
    I think we should concentrate on making earth a place filled with love. Let's focus on that, and not use time on speculating about things we have no indication of.

    I don't think taking things written in the bible literally is a good thing, there is too much dogmatism behind that, and the outcome is rarely good (apart from the fact that you run into contradictions you cannot solve).

    But I think your "way of faith" is a good way.
    “Reality is that which, when you stop believing in it, doesn't go away.” (Philip K. ****)
  14. #74  
    Quote Originally Posted by clulup
    My view on this: even IF there is life after death, this life is certainly not open exclusively for Christians, because it would be quite silly and mean of god to send people to hell only because they were born in the wrong (non-christian) place.... So Jesus was wrong when he said only people believing in him can go to heaven, any other explanation does not make sense even within the context of god and heaven existing.
    Since you seem to have some knowledge of the Bible or at least the ability to look it up....

    I ask you this... What about the Sodomites? Where they not simply born it the "wrong" place. What about the decendants of Kane? Where they not simply victims of circumstance?
  15. #75  
    Quote Originally Posted by clulup
    Ok, now you are backing off from your previous statement, that you can only get to god/heaven through believing in Jesus
    Please note that it was not my intention to denote a "backing-off" of any sort.
    Quote Originally Posted by clulup
    Here is what Jesus said according to the bible: "Jesus said to him, 'I am the way, and the truth, and the life; no one comes to the Father, but through Me'" (John 14:6)." I don't think anybody ever doubted that "coming to the father" means going to heaven.

    I can see why you are backing off: indeed it is almost impossible to imagine that all Non-Christians cannot go to heaven. In the case of atheists, it is their own "fault" or decision not to believe in god, so it serves them right if they cannot go to heaven.
    NOTE: The standard is not christianity. The standard is access through Jesus. Jesus warned his followers that in the day of judgment there would be many who would point to the deeds done in His name as basis for entry. Yet, He says His response to them will be "I never knew you. Depart from me.

    Who is it that would point to deeds done in His name? Christians! So it is not that only Christians will go to heaven. it is only those who come through Jesus.

    NOTE: We have no evidence that Jesus came to establish a new religion. In fact, the title "Christians" appears to have arisen as a demeaning slur (much like the term "christies" introduced on this forum in another thread).

    Quote Originally Posted by clulup
    But Jews, Muslims, Hindu, Buddhists etc. (the great majority of humans actually) don't believe in Christ, so, according to Jesus, they don't go to heaven, even though it is hardly their fault that they don't believe in Christ.

    So either Jesus was wrong about his assertion that one can only go to heaven through him, or most people go to hell, even if it is not their fault...
    You have captured the question for the ages well. Either Jesus is who he says he is. Or he is a total fraud.

    As to who goes to heaven or hell. It is totally reasonable to me to expect that Jews, Muslims, Hindi Buddhists, Christians, and others will be in heaven. It is equally reasonable to me to expect that Jews, Muslims, Hindi Buddhists, Christians, and others will be in hell.

    Quote Originally Posted by clulup
    difficult problem, certainly for those who think the bible is litterally true, which seems to be quite a high proportion of the people in the US.
    Not sure that's such a high number. Consider all the ungodly things that are done by people in the US (and elsewhere of course, but you mentioned the US in particular).
    Quote Originally Posted by clulup

    My view on this: even IF there is life after death, this life is certainly not open exclusively for Christians
    Agreed
    Quote Originally Posted by clulup
    , because it would be quite silly and mean of god to send people to hell only because they were born in the wrong (non-christian) place....
    That would not be the reason. The reason would be not coming through Jesus. There is no-geopgraphic requirement that I have found to date.
    Quote Originally Posted by clulup
    So Jesus was wrong when he said only people believing in him can go to heaven, any other explanation does not make sense even within the context of god and heaven existing.
    Wow! It doesn't make sense to you, therefore it is wrong?

    In the context of god and heaven existing, god calls the shots, no? How those shots relate to my sensibilities is not a factor that my creator has to accommodate--in the context of god and heaven existing.

    And, as it relates to the questions of how others can learn about Jesus, consider the US which you have frequently referred to as a religious nation. By and large, the events of the Bible did not occur on these shores (there is some in-house debate). Yet, nearly 2,000 yers later, this nation is viewed (rightly or wrongly) as the primary bastion of christianity. Of least concern need be how the world hears about Jesus. The concern is how you respond when you hear.

    =========================================
    For those just joining us, this post generated some confusion as to where I stand. I'm offering explanation here that you will see again a bit later if you keep reading.

    (From Post 98): I apologize for confusing the matter. I was dealing with the semantics of terminology such as "Buddhist" "Muslim" "Christian" "Jew" "Agnostic" "Athiest" "Hindu".......

    Thoses terms are just that--terms, labels. The issue is not your label. The issue is how you respond to Jesus (Y'shua).
    Last edited by shopharim; 12/17/2004 at 08:13 AM.
  16. #76  
    Please note: God as descirbed in the Bible does not want anyone to miss out. He is more interested in you having eternal life than you are for yourself. He even seeks to save, as it were, those who don't believe in, or flat out reject the possibility of, his existence.

    He is not willing that any should perish. But, He will allow it based on our acceptance or rejection of His set way.
  17.    #77  
    Quote Originally Posted by clulup
    I think we should concentrate on making earth a place filled with love. Let's focus on that, and not use time on speculating about things we have no indication of.
    From a Christian standpoint.....is it more appropriate to make the extremely short span of your lifetime a better place (with love) or is it more appropriate to try and make sure you spend ETERNITY (that's a long time) in heaven. I think we should concentrate on the lord more.

    And this reminds me of another quote I once read, don't remember the quotee, but it went something like......."For those who don't believe in God.....you better be right".

    Take this as a risk/reward example. If God does not exist, then the only thing that Christians get is to lead a better life (on average... I know horrible things have been done in the name of God in the past, but in theory if you lead a christian life, you'd have led a good life). BUT, if God does exist, then those who do not believe in him will spend an eternity in hell.

    Is that the kind of gambling you'd like to do? For the examples that have been given on this forum, God cannot be proven just like he cannot be definatively disproven. Doesn't seem intelligent (in my opinion, no offense meant here) to believe that God doesn't exist when those type of stakes are on the line.
  18. #78  
    Quote Originally Posted by RicoM
    Evil is the result of what happens when man does not have God's love present in his heart. It's like the cold that comes when there is no heat or the darkness that comes when there is no light."

    The professor sat down.
    [/B]

    The justification that evil or painful acts can sometimes work towards a greater good does not work for me either. While I can appreciate that the pain that a little girl feels on the first day of school when leaving her parents for the first time benefits her in the long run, this type of event cannot justify gross evil acts.

    For example, the Lacy/Conner Petersen is an example of gross evil. Nothing good came out of this and it is a perfect example that god either does not exist, has no interest in humanity, or is not omnipotent.

    -rob
    Neopoint 1000, I300, Treo 300, i330, Toshiba 2032, Treo 600, T608/UX50, I500,Treo 600, G1000, Treo 650, PPC-6600, PPC-6700, Treo 650, Blackberry 7250, Treo 700wx, Motorola Q, PPC-6800, 700wx, Motorola Q9c, Sprint Touch, Sprint ACE, 700wx, 800w, Touch Pro, 800w, Touch Diamond, 800w, Treo Pro, Palm Pre, HTC Hero, Palm Pre, EVO 4G warm2.2
  19. #79  
    Quote Originally Posted by Chick-Dance
    Gosh, as an atheist I am lost here. So much is pointed to “evil is the absence of God,” and since poor me doesn’t believe in God I am in big-time boo-boo. I therefore find some comfort in what cgordonn wrote:
    “1) Tolerance and love is absolute good
    2) intolerance and lack of empathy is absolute evil”
    No mention of God or Bible or quotes, just simple feelings. Faith. Hope.
    (Keep debating though, I truly enjoy reading this thread!)
    Well if it makes you feel even better... we love you. And since you tolerate us, we're all doing absolute good here. GO US!!
    .
  20. #80  
    Quote Originally Posted by Chick-Dance
    Gosh, as an atheist I am lost here. So much is pointed to “evil is the absence of God,” and since poor me doesn’t believe in God I am in big-time boo-boo. I therefore find some comfort in what cgordonn wrote:
    “1) Tolerance and love is absolute good
    2) intolerance and lack of empathy is absolute evil”
    No mention of God or Bible or quotes, just simple feelings. Faith. Hope.
    (Keep debating though, I truly enjoy reading this thread!)
    Thanks Chick-Dance

    While I am not an atheist, I am also far from being a "true beliver". I grew up in Hawaii and the God that I know makes his presence known to me without the need for the writings and interpretations of man. Rather I would know his existence when I would watch the sunrise at Sandy Beach, hike in the Koolau's or watch the pounding surf at Waimea Bay. I dont believe my faith needs to be tied to a chruch (I was raised catholic) or to a book of ancient writings (bible, koran, torah, etc...) that have been and still are interpreted and twisted at mans whim.

    Granted, my beliefs may sound "simplistic" to some here on the board, but why does faith in God have to be any more complicated.

    CGordonn
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