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  1. #41  
    Quote Originally Posted by sxtg
    I think Good Is Good and Evil is Evil.
    This comment by Clulup...
    You can walk past a person in need without helping - that is absence of good. You can kick the person and take away the only coat that person has - that would be doing bad/evil. Of course the difference is a gradual one. For instance, also negligence can reach a criminal degree and hence become evil by public definition.

    Is nothing more than the different degrees and demonstrates the "red/blue or loud/quiet" characteristics.
    Accepting that premise for discussion, what is the definition of evil? good?
  2. #42  
    Quote Originally Posted by shopharim
    Accepting that premise for discussion, what is the definition of evil? good?
    Webster defines them as this;

    Good: Conforming to moral order
    Evil: Morally reprehensible.

    Obviously people's individual definitions will vary in tandem with thier morals
  3. #43  
    Some things I'd like to point out:

    Engaging in an "evil" act, willingly or not, is still an absence of "good." This does not nessesarily mean that not doing something "good" is equivalent to "evil." (ie: If I don't get my work done, I'm not also engaging in "evil").

    Keep in mind that just because something can be defined (or attempted to), it does not mean it truly exists. In addition, all that exists cannot be truly defined (ie: love).

    In my opinion "evil" is based purely on your perceptions. It can, and will, only exist if you believe in it. That being said, believing in "evil" may have a potentially positive or "good" effect on one's life (assuming your perceptions of "evil" are similar to that of the collective majority). For example: consciously deviating from all things "evil" throughout one's existence promotes a happier, healthier stay.
    .
  4. #44  
    you know, the grand hypocrisy in this world with many religions is that while the core of their faiths teach love, forgiveness, and acceptance, they will instead torture or brutally mutilate others "in the name of their god"

    this I think is the ultimate in religious hypocrisy. I also can't stand the fact that certain faiths put down other faith systems because they don't agree with their practices. they forget it seems that their overriding core values preach love and brotherhood. ie. baptists strongly dislike catholics.
    just an example. there are many others im sure. but religion often ends up just dividing people rather than accepting them.
    now I am not putting down all religions, I am by no means a churchgoer but I do believe in a god of sort does exist.
    but I do think there is an awful lot of hypocrisy going on in the world of religion today - spanning all faiths to one extent or another, and affecting some MUCH MORE than others.
    although I know radical islam doesn't agree with our views, they have no business beheading ANYONE if they are trying to become any world region's new leaders! strength is one thing - base brutality is pointless - history shows this over & over again.
    if religion is about love, than differences shouldn't matter should they?
    how can a person justify a beheading to God? how can a person justify hating another simply because they are catholic or protestant rather than baptist, or vice versa, ad infinitum?

    much of it simply makes you just shake your head in disbelief.
  5. #45  
    sorry to deviate from the focus of the topic, I just had to add that observation.
  6. #46  
    Quote Originally Posted by sxtg
    Webster defines them as this;

    Good: Conforming to moral order
    Evil: Morally reprehensible.

    Obviously people's individual definitions will vary in tandem with thier morals
    According to these definitions, both good and evil are degrees of morality (I would offer that morality itself is not on the level of light and sound).

    As such, the original post stands in saying that evil does not exist, but rather is the condition of the absence of something (the origina post offered God).
  7. #47  
    Quote Originally Posted by shopharim
    According to these definitions, both good and evil are degrees of morality (I would offer that morality itself is not on the level of light and sound).

    As such, the original post stands in saying that evil does not exist, but rather is the condition of the absence of something (the origina post offered God).
    I would argue that evil is not so much the "absense of' as it is the "contrast to"

    As someone posted earlier you can have a neutral state which would be neither Good nor Evil.
    Last edited by sxtg; 12/15/2004 at 02:30 PM.
  8. #48  
    But yet, your all blind....
  9. #49  
    Quote Originally Posted by dlbrummels
    But yet, your all blind....

    Ok but I assume you say "blind" metaphorically. If we are truely ALL blind then would "sight" (metaphorically) even exist?
  10. #50  
    "In the land of the blind the one eyed man is king"
    .
  11. #51  
    OK. I'm not going to quote anyone.

    skillz - First thing is: God is hypothetical. You do not know, absolutely, if nothing can or cannot exist (if the big bang were true, what was before it?). I know this sounds strange to agree that nothing is the absence of everything and still believe that everything also encompasses nothing. I think of everything as whole numbers while nothing is just the number zero.

    The parked car and moving car are both relative. We all know Einstein's theory on this one.

    I have a question. Like light are there levels of good and evil? What is absolute evil and absolute good? Good an evil are both defined by humans. Maybe God doesn't give a crap as Earth is insignifcant to the "Grand Scheme".
  12.    #52  
    Quote Originally Posted by LordPhong
    I have a question. Like light are there levels of good and evil? What is absolute evil and absolute good? Good an evil are both defined by humans. Maybe God doesn't give a crap as Earth is insignifcant to the "Grand Scheme".
    From my perspective...there is an obvious/easy answer to this....

    1) Absolute evil is Satan
    2) Absolute good is God
    3) God so loved us that he gave his only begotten son
  13. #53  
    Quote Originally Posted by RicoM
    From my perspective...there is an obvious/easy answer to this....

    1) Absolute evil is Satan
    2) Absolute good is God
    3) God so loved us that he gave his only begotten son
    This is all well and good if your a Christian. But what about those religions that dont subscribe to the above. Are they any less good or any more evil because they dont share these beliefs? It bothers me that since 9/11, there has been such an upsurge of religious intollerance. The three great religions, Christianity, Juddism and Islam all believe in the same God, all have their religious roots in the same region of the middle east. Yet look at all the strife between the three. Then there are the splinter and offshoot groups of these religions that take the mainstream beliefs and pervert them to suite their own means.

    From my perspective...

    1) Tollerance and love is absolute good
    2) intollerance and lack of empathy is absolute evil

    CGordonn
  14. #54  
    Quote Originally Posted by cgordonn
    This is all well and good if your a Christian. But what about those religions that dont subscribe to the above. CGordonn
    Whether or not you subscribe to it is not a factor in whether or not it is true.
    Quote Originally Posted by cgordonn
    Are they any less good or any more evil because they dont share these beliefs?CGordonn
    Religions are simply practices by which people attempt to relate to God.
    Quote Originally Posted by cgordonn
    It bothers me that since 9/11, there has been such an upsurge of religious intollerance. The three great religions, Christianity, Juddism and Islam all believe in the same God, all have their religious roots in the same region of the middle east. Yet look at all the strife between the three. Then there are the splinter and offshoot groups of these religions that take the mainstream beliefs and pervert them to suite their own means
    We have a bit of over-simplification here. While there is shared history and shared geogrpahy, there is a key point of divergence. Y'shua (Jesus) claimed to be THE way, THE truth, and THE life, and that no one could come to God except though him.

    This claim is boolean in nature. Either it is true or it is not. Christians believe this claim.

    However, that divergence is not basis for the wars between various factions. While some my lift high their religious banners in their wars, and appeal to their god for victory, the wars themselves are always about the same thing: land, which translates to wealth and power.
    Quote Originally Posted by cgordonn

    From my perspective...

    1) Tollerance and love is absolute good
    2) intollerance and lack of empathy is absolute evil

    CGordonn
    I'm with you on love being the absolute good

    I find evil as how we descirbe the absence of that love.
  15. #55  
    Quote Originally Posted by shopharim
    Whether or not you subscribe to it is not a factor in whether or not it is true.

    Religions are simply practices by which people attempt to relate to God.

    We have a bit of over-simplification here. While there is shared history and shared geogrpahy, there is a key point of divergence. Y'shua (Jesus) claimed to be THE way, THE truth, and THE life, and that no one could come to God except though him.

    This claim is boolean in nature. Either it is true or it is not. Christians believe this claim.

    However, that divergence is not basis for the wars between various factions. While some my lift high their religious banners in their wars, and appeal to their god for victory, the wars themselves are always about the same thing: land, which translates to wealth and power.


    I'm with you on love being the absolute good

    I find evil as how we descirbe the absence of that love.

    See I knew all along you were just yanking me for a debate
  16. #56  
    Quote Originally Posted by shopharim
    We have a bit of over-simplification here. While there is shared history and shared geogrpahy, there is a key point of divergence. Y'shua (Jesus) claimed to be THE way, THE truth, and THE life, and that no one could come to God except though him.
    So you must be convinced that only Christians go to heaven... wow! What happens to all the poor Buddhist, Hindu, Jewish, Muslim souls? Do they go to hell? Or maybe to some second class heaven, since "no one can come to god except through Jesus"?

    So who's fault is it if the guy who happens to be born in Tibet, with hardly any chance of becoming a Christian, has to go to hell? His? Yours, because you didn't go to Tibet as a missionary? Doesn't it almost break your heart to see a group of non-christian children passing, because you have to think "the poor sods, they will never go to heaven (like me, because I believe in Jesus...)"

    Honestly, I don't think you can seriously stick to what you wrote without running into some very serious common sense and post-mortem apartheid problems...
    “Reality is that which, when you stop believing in it, doesn't go away.” (Philip K. ****)
  17. #57  
    post-mortem apartheid...nice phrase.

    Obviously I did not share all of christian doctrine. Two key promises worth pointing out in light of your concern are:
    1. God rewards those who diligently seek Him
    2. God draws nigh to those who draw nigh to Him

    This works in Tibet, Timbuktu, and Tennessee.
  18. #58  
    Quote Originally Posted by LordPhong
    OK. I'm not going to quote anyone.

    skillz - First thing is: God is hypothetical. You do not know, absolutely, if nothing can or cannot exist (if the big bang were true, what was before it?). I know this sounds strange to agree that nothing is the absence of everything and still believe that everything also encompasses nothing. I think of everything as whole numbers while nothing is just the number zero.
    I agree that "God", just like "evil" & "nothingness" is purely hypothetical. Carefully re-read my previous post on the concept of "nothing". My post on the concept starts off from what I would call an "aethistic angle" to show another facet of nothingness.

    Yes, if you look at "everything" as whole numbers and zero as "nothing" then eveything does indeed encompass nothing. However, if like me, you look at "everything" as the number one and "nothing" as zero then what?
    .
  19. #59  
    Quote Originally Posted by clulup
    So you must be convinced that only Christians go to heaven... wow! What happens to all the poor Buddhist, Hindu, Jewish, Muslim souls? Do they go to hell? Or maybe to some second class heaven, since "no one can come to god except through Jesus"?

    So who's fault is it if the guy who happens to be born in Tibet, with hardly any chance of becoming a Christian, has to go to hell? His? Yours, because you didn't go to Tibet as a missionary? Doesn't it almost break your heart to see a group of non-christian children passing, because you have to think "the poor sods, they will never go to heaven (like me, because I believe in Jesus...)"

    Honestly, I don't think you can seriously stick to what you wrote without running into some very serious common sense and post-mortem apartheid problems...
    Clulup you have pointed out the great divide in this argument, I think. Perhaps I can throw in my .015 worth and further your points.

    First, we are all dancing around the issue. The issue is belief and faith. No one can tell another that their beliefs or values or faith is invalid or wrong. In the secular world, just look at how fractious our political system has become due to one's "beliefs" and how those beliefs color your view of the world and the values you hold. Let's take a look at something you quite accurately pointed out:
    Quote Originally Posted by clulup
    What happens to all the poor Buddhist, Hindu, Jewish, Muslim souls? Do they go to hell? Or maybe to some second class heaven, since "no one can come to god except through Jesus"?
    Now being an active member of one of those religions mentioned in this thread, many would agree with this statement, I however, have the view (and belief and faith as well) that God is a loving God and understands human nature. As such, He will manifest himself in different ways to different peoples to give them the opportunity to come to Him in their own way. So yes, I believe that the poor Buddist, Hindu, Jew and Muslim will the opportunity go to heaven just as every Christian has that opportunity. Even the tribal people that have no exposure to any organized religion will also have the opportunity to go to heaven based soley on how that person has lived his/her life.
    Quote Originally Posted by clulup
    Doesn't it almost break your heart to see a group of non-christian children passing, because you have to think "the poor sods, they will never go to heaven (like me, because I believe in Jesus...)"
    It doesn't break my heart because I know that they all have the opportunity to go. This is where most Christians fall to the wayside. It is sort of the battle of strict constructionists v. intent and a pragmatic view of the Constitution. You will find many strict constructionists will support an amendment to the Constitution allowing foreign born citizens to run for President. Which is totally opposite of their core beleif -- The Constitution is what it is, don't go changing it to suit the times (a very pragmatic view of the Constitution). The same applies to the Bible -- they view it as only accepting Jesus as your savior. Well, what about the work you do. Jesus was known for his WORK as much as his belief. Belief without the works only gets you halfway there, imo.

    Second, how does one view the Bible in their system of values and beliefs? Most of the Christians I know view it as a set of rules and outlines what will happen if you violate said rules. It is a fear of God view of things. I believe that the Bible is a love letter ... encouraging us to live a life of good works to help others less fortunate than we might be. All it takes is one good piece of work to gently guide someone down a different path.

    Third, nowhere in the Bible does it say you have to gather in a church/temple/mosque to beleive. It simply states that where two or more of you are gathered, I will be there. It's building community. Communities band together to better themselves (I hope). This is good.

    Finally, onetime a student asked me why we described hell as being "hot" filled with fire and brimstone and being a place of total misery. Well, I was taken back and said I would have to let him know the next week. I struggled with this until something happened ... perhaps it was God hitting me upside the head with a 2x4, I don't know ... After a particularly difficult day, my daughter, then very young, came running up to me on her little three year old legs and with her little three year old arms gave me a huge hug and with her little three year old voice said, "Daddy, I love you!" And there it was -- love. Pure unadulterted love. Imagine your life without it. Would you ever CHOOSE to go there? And that is what God gives us -- the ability to choose love. So I told my student -- Heaven is a place filled with love. Nothing else. Hell is the total absence of love. It is your choice.

    So, I believe. I have faith. And I am grateful for it each and every day. You don't have to prove it to me ... I know it exists.

    Of course, I still believe in Santa Claus, too.
    << My command as we escape Palm HQ with a new Pre 3>>.

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  20. #60  
    Quote Originally Posted by shopharim
    post-mortem apartheid...nice phrase.

    Obviously I did not share all of christian doctrine. Two key promises worth pointing out in light of your concern are:
    1. God rewards those who diligently seek Him
    2. God draws nigh to those who draw nigh to Him

    This works in Tibet, Timbuktu, and Tennessee.
    There is a problem with that theorie though..
    Why would a person in tibet who's never heard of the bible etc suddenly wake up and think: today I'm going to seek god?

    It is like you suddenly starting to seek GaBuri, the great god of the martians.
    (of course I'm making that last bit up, but you get the point)

    another that I would like to reitterate is what chick said before, is good equal to god? I can go with god being equal to good, but does it work the other way around too? Can there be good without god? I certainly think so!
    Cultures without god(s) surely have for example motherly love.. or love in general for that matter..
    <IMG WIDTH="200" HEIGHT="50" SRC=http://www.visorcentral.com/images/visorcentral.gif> (ex)VisorCentral Discussion Moderator
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