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  1. #21  
    Quote Originally Posted by daThomas
    HAHAHAAHAHHAHHAHAHAHAAH!!!!
    So many christies. So few lions.

    treobk214, if you can't admit that this guy is trying to preach his religion using historical documents (some of which are VERY questionable in their historic value) then you just don't want to see the truth. Igniting on "They Want to Ban The Declaration!!" is naive in this case.

    The ACLU is one of the greatest institutions in this country. I think the fact that they have represented the Klan to protect their rights to free speech, shows they are not part of a partisan agenda.

    sxtg, you are free to say a prayer to yourself in a public school. The teacher is NOT allowed to lead a prayer. I think you know the difference.

    theyve represented the klan, huh? now doesnt that strike you as,, um.. hmm.. uh.. JUST A LITTLE BIT DISTURBING!!!!!?

    represent and protect what is GOOD in america, NOT WHAT WILL ERODE IT!

    you say they are one of the greatest institutions? wow. boy, do i disagree, daThomas! how incredible to say something like that. i think they are probably the most reckless and irresponsible organizations in america today, and thats putting it politely

    i return you to my previous statement... aclu = anti-america. PERIOD
  2. #22  
    Yes I know the difference. But mets fan thinks that my right to pray somehow forces him to

    At least thats what his comment suggests...

    No, it's like going to Jerusalem and telling people they HAVE TO BE Jewish. (Or at the very least, have to say Jewish prayers, even if they don't believe them.)

    Huge difference.
  3. #23  
    Yea, they represented the Klan's right to Free Speech. That's what you majority christies fail to realize. Groups like the ACLU work to protect everyone's rights equally. That's what makes this country great. I'm sorry you can't see that.
  4. #24  
    Quote Originally Posted by sxtg
    Yes I know the difference. But mets fan thinks that my right to pray somehow forces him to

    At least thats what his comment suggests...

    No, it's like going to Jerusalem and telling people they HAVE TO BE Jewish. (Or at the very least, have to say Jewish prayers, even if they don't believe them.)

    Huge difference.
    Your right to pray doesn't do that. Yours (and others) constant insistence that America is a "Christian nation," that the founders were Christians and we should live by their religion (even though they explicitly wanted freedom of religion for the people), and that (to paraphrase O'Reilly) "if you don't want to celebrate Christmas you should go to Israel," seems like it's forcing it on me.
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  5. #25  
    "The ACLU is one of the greatest institutions in this country. I think the fact that they have represented the Klan to protect their rights to free speech, shows they are not part of a partisan agenda."


    i suppose they would represent mr zarqawi and protect HIS rights to free speech as well if he were on trial in the US today, now wouldnt they?

    they are, if anything at all, ONLY detrimental to our country - NOTHING ELSE.

    you see, THIS is why rather than doing away with anything american, we have to do away with ANYTHING ACLU.

    they want to represent the rights of criminals so badly? why dont they just commissurate with al qaeda and evaluate just how similarly their views mirror each other? better yet, just get the hell out of our country if they find it SO DAMN OFFENSIVE.

    we`d be far better off without having to listen to their nonsense. truly
    Last edited by treobk214; 12/08/2004 at 07:38 PM.
  6. #26  
    Quote Originally Posted by daThomas
    Yea, they represented the Klan's right to Free Speech. That's what you majority christies fail to realize. Groups like the ACLU work to protect everyone's rights equally. That's what makes this country great. I'm sorry you can't see that.
    hey jack, im not religious.. why is it so hard for you to understand that not all of your opponents are "thumpers" as it were?
  7. #27  
    Quote Originally Posted by metsfan
    Your right to pray doesn't do that. Yours (and others) constant insistence that America is a "Christian nation," that the founders were Christians and we should live by their religion (even though they explicitly wanted freedom of religion for the people), and that (to paraphrase O'Reilly) "if you don't want to celebrate Christmas you should go to Israel," seems like it's forcing it on me.

    It was founded by christians! Nobody expects you to be christian or even cares if you are. Absolutely they wanted freedom of religion, but that doesn't mean persecution of thier own.

    If you don't want to celebrate christmas then don't. Who gives a S@&%! Just quit complaining that other people do.

    I don't understand why accepting others beliefs can only be recognized by removing my own.
  8. #28  
    Quote Originally Posted by sxtg
    It was founded by christians! Nobody expects you to be christian or even cares if you are. Absolutely they wanted freedom of religion, but that doesn't mean persecution of thier own.

    If you don't want to celebrate christmas then don't. Who gives a S@&%! Just quit complaining that other people do.

    I don't understand why accepting others beliefs can only be recognized by removing my own.

    BINGO!!! and dammit, if some people cant get this through their impossibly thick skulls, then they should just get OUT of the country, and see how their philosophy holds up in a place like saudi arabia.

    if you dont agree with something, fine, dont agree with it or dont practice it. do whatever you want - why? ITS AMERICA.

    but stop trying to disallow others their very right to uphold what THEY AS AMERICANS hold to be important as well!
    Last edited by treobk214; 12/08/2004 at 08:00 PM.
  9. #29  
    "I don't understand why accepting others beliefs can only be recognized by removing my own."

    ABSOLUTELY PERFECT.
  10. #30  
    daThomas, I would like to ask you to please refrain from using the derogatory term "christies" in your posts. You are clearly using this term as a means to slight those that believe in Christ or are Christians. It is clear that your intent is to insult those that are of that particular religion. Although I am not a Christian I find your disrespect and lack of restraint offensive. Your lack of tolerance of others beliefs is also quite telling.

    If you don not refrain from this offensive action I will politely ask the moderators to ban you. You are personally attacking many people and it is abundantly clear that this is your intent. That sort of thing is frowned upon here and it does little to further your position.


    on the topic itself. I am not a Christian as I said, but it is clear that many Judeo-Christian principles are deeply ingrained in our history. I can accept that. I can also follow the laws etc of our great country without ever feeling that I am encouraged to become a Christian. Why is that so hard for some people (daThomas) to accept and ignore if they need to?
  11. #31  
    My use of the term "christies" is a reference to those who attempt to force their beliefs on others. If it makes you feel better I'll make it "christy thumpers" or would you prefer "christy zealots" or how about "christy fundies"?

    How should I refer to that portion of Christians who would push their views on others?
  12. #32  
    Quote Originally Posted by treobk214
    if you dont agree with something, fine, dont agree with it or dont practice it. do whatever you want - why? ITS AMERICA.

    but stop trying to disallow others their very right to uphold what THEY AS AMERICANS hold to be important as well!
    Your above statements further reinforce my belief that you are confused. When broken down you're basically stating: "You (opposing view) have the freedom to disagree; but DO NOT disagree."

    Your second statement also reveals something quite interesting. It seems you've managed to whip out a double edged sword here. Try this exercise: Sit in the mirror, stare, and repeat your second statement infinitely.
    .
  13. #33  
    skillz, what I find interesting indeed is actually the lengths you go in attempts to twist and distort what is said.

    i think you are the one who is confused here - YOU REINFORCE my belief that this is clearly the case when YOU make the nonsensical statements as you have above. i think you`d rather create some rhetorical argument out of a point that is positively cut and dry.

    look, you dont agree with my opinion, and i dont agree with yours. i am not FORCING or requesting that you to give up anything by disagreeing with you am i? what you seem to be saying is that if YOU disagree with something i do, it must be taken away. but if i disagree with something you are doing, suddenly im infringing on someone`s rights and should therefore look in the mirror?

    I think you are the one who needs to sit in front of a mirror for a long... long time and try to figure out where you really stand.

    I will simplify things - because clearly, you need these points to be spoonfed to you.


    1) if you don't agree with the way the declaration of independence is presented in a particular realm, acknowledge that and move on, realizing no one is forcing you into doing, thinking, or believing in ANY particular way.

    i dont celebrate hannakah, but i am not asking anyone to remove their traditions or stop mentioning it in particular situations. i could care less what they do - remember? its america. but when the aclu starts trying to TAKE AWAY traditions that have been ingrained in america`s history for YEARS, skillz, i see a problem with that. so where the hell are you coming up with this confusion crap? what garbage.
    Last edited by treobk214; 12/08/2004 at 11:38 PM.
  14. #34  
    your belief is that I am confused, hmm?

    it is my belief that you are simply unable to make a strong argument here skillz.

    glaringly so. Rather than deal with the points that are made, let's spin & twist ....oh, uh ... I mean ( giggle ) "break down " his statements to try and conjure up an issue, right?

    I think your point is not only confused, but also misguided. you continually reinforce my belief that that is the way it is with you.

    Cheerio!
    Last edited by treobk214; 12/09/2004 at 12:02 AM.
  15. #35  
    and that, folks, is "breaking it down!"

    giggle. you're quite funny, really.
  16. #36  
    Quote Originally Posted by daThomas
    My use of the term "christies" is a reference to those who attempt to force their beliefs on others. If it makes you feel better I'll make it "christy thumpers" or would you prefer "christy zealots" or how about "christy fundies"?

    How should I refer to that portion of Christians who would push their views on others?
    I know this sounds funny coming from me considering some of the rather nasty positions I have taken, but I think it would show great maturity of self and point view if you were to just use the last line of your post. Say "christians who wish to push their views on others". You dont call Jews names or Muslims or anyone else, why Christians? Not to mention your stereotypical namecalling doesnt speak of all Christians, but you dont make any distinction. I know you are a liberal from many of your posts in other threads, and as I understand it part of being liberal is tolerance. My liberal friends say that everyone should have the same chance, treatment, respect, etc. Your derision of Christians does say tolerance to me.

    On a more personal note, I dont have any use for religion in general. I think it's a crutch for many people. That said however, I also realize it is very important to many people and who am I to say they shouldnt have it? Who are you to say they can't? Oh sure you dont like to hear about other peoples religion because you are not of the same mind. I will bet however when something is important to you or you are passionate about something, you speak up. What's the difference?

    Disagree if you will but don't be a jerk. No one respect your pov when you are. Trust me on that.
  17. #37  
    treobk214,

    Despite my post being directed towards you and your statements, I did not and do not expect you to understand it or the pragmatics behind it. Please do not take offence because I called you confused, you know who you are; how I percieve you has no bearing on your actual state of being.
    Last edited by skillllllz; 12/09/2004 at 05:40 AM.
    .
  18. #38  
    Quote Originally Posted by Woof
    I know this sounds funny coming from me considering some of the rather nasty positions I have taken, but I think it would show great maturity of self and point view if you were to just use the last line of your post. Say "christians who wish to push their views on others". You dont call Jews names or Muslims or anyone else, why Christians? Not to mention your stereotypical namecalling doesnt speak of all Christians, but you dont make any distinction. I know you are a liberal from many of your posts in other threads, and as I understand it part of being liberal is tolerance. My liberal friends say that everyone should have the same chance, treatment, respect, etc. Your derision of Christians does say tolerance to me.
    I think the term you're really looking for is "extremists." Although they exist in all groups (non-religious included), the term is commonly equated with one particular religion. I think that is why it's not used where it should be. Maybe he should have said "Christian Extremists"?
    .
  19. #39  
    "Oh sure you dont like to hear about other peoples religion because you are not of the same mind. I will bet however when something is important to you or you are passionate about something, you speak up. What's the difference?" - woof

    wow. did this hit the nail it on the head or what?!

    very well said, woof. that very sentence captures what is going on here superbly.

    as far as daThomas' use of "christies", I thought he was all about the aclu and its tolerance of ALL types of people. so the aclu can represent the klan but christians must be derided, huh?

    I wonder how a person fails to see that there is something fundamentally wrong with this, esp since he is such a liberal.

    if I were to make a statement as he did, for example if I said something about the "damned liberals" or something, he'd be up in arms claiming im throwing labels around or calling people names - that there's no reason to try to categorize people here or that id be offending liberals all around the world.

    conservatives can't say anything about any group - oh no, god forbid ( there's that word again - GOD, oh no! ) but these liberals can go around offending all christians if they want to, right? didn't the klan try to force their views onto others? force them to hate, force them to want to lynch?
    especially as they attempted to make it impossible for african americans to assimilate into society? didn't they try to intimidate everyone who fought for civil rights, including YOU liberals, yet libs would rather castigate the christians than realize how the klan did something far worse than christians could ever have done?!
    oh boy if suddenly HE dislikes a certain group for any reason, he can call them whatever name in the book he likes. what a bleeping hypocrit! really.

    even though he thinks a group like the aclu is the greatest org. because they represent and protect ALL poeple, he can't follow that same line of thinking when it comes to the christians.

    how hypocritical.
  20. #40  
    Quote Originally Posted by sxtg
    As your post clearly points out... This country was founded by, as you put it, christies! If you don't like it....LEAVE!!!!!!!

    You don't see me in Asia complaining about all the Budists.

    Not only is christianity PART of our history, it is the fundamental origin of the American Government. To say its not history is an extremly ignorant comment. And anyone who believes it, is obviously .... well ya know.....STUPID!
    You've simply demonstrated your total lack of knowledge of the founding of the U.S. Might I suggest to go the library and read the Federalist Papers (written by the founders of the U.S., not historians) and then think about what you've written?

    Yes, the founders of the U.S. were, for the most part, Christian. But they were well aware of the dangers of an officially sanctioned religion. Even 250 years ago there were plenty of examples of persecution of people who didn't follow the "official" state religion (ever hear of the Pilgrims, as just one example). The authors of the Constitution, in spite of being Christian, deliberately banned the government from establishing or favoring any religion. In the Federalist Papers, you'll find they actually used the phrase "a wall between church and state."

    You also demonstrate your apparent ignorance of the present state of affairs in much of the world, where the dominance of an official or majority religion is responsible for much of the world's unrest, strife and bloodshed. From Northern Ireland (yes, Christians are still fighting sectarian wars and persecuting those they disagree with--even other Christians), to Iraq (Sunnis vs. Shiites) to Asia (Pakistan vs. India, Muslims vs. Christians in the Phillipines) and more, states with an official or dominant religion seem far more likely to suffer from internal violance and rebellion than those which don't.

    I'm a Christian, but I don't believe that gives me the right (or duty, as some Christians put it), to proseletize to all who come before me. I don't want my kid's teachers selling their religion in the classroom, whichever it may be. How would you feel if one of your teachers was a muslim, and used his position of authority to try to convince your child that Islam was the one and true religion? Wouldn't like it, would you. So why is it okay for a Christian teacher to do the same? Oh, I guess your solution would be to ban non-Christians from all positions of authority.

    You write: "If you don't like it....LEAVE!!!!!!!" I guess that, as much as anything, displays your true colors. Intolerance for anyone who doesn't believe as you do. Fortunately, our constitution forbids such action by the government. Like it or not, we are, by law, tradition and custom a pluralistic society, and people who disagree with you have the right to live here, and the right to express their opinion. That's something else the Christian founding fathers were smart enough to protect.

    I don't think you'd be very happy in Saudi Arabia, where even speaking of Christianity can get you jailed. And where your children would be indoctrinated in the muslim religion at school. So why do you think it should be ok to act the same way here?

    Study history, instead of religion, and then re-join this discussion.
    Bob Meyer
    I'm out of my mind. But feel free to leave a message.
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