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  1. #101  
    p.s. just in case. I do admire your strong believes see where you are comming from.
    In an ideal world I'd agree with you, but the world isnt ideal...

    A lot of religious points of view seem outdated to me, but people keep trying to defend them even though the evidence points the other way.
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  2. #102  
    Quote Originally Posted by ToolkiT
    p.s. just in case. I do admire your strong believes see where you are comming from.
    In an ideal world I'd agree with you, but the world isnt ideal...
    Indeed. But the ideals are still worth pursuing.
    Quote Originally Posted by ToolkiT
    A lot of religious points of view seem outdated to me, but people keep trying to defend them even though the evidence points the other way.
    At some point I may get on my soapbox about religion versus spirituality. Religion, by definition will become outdated, because it is a system of practices.

    From my read in the Bible, for intance, Jesus appeared very opposed to the religious.

    Coming next, "What's the harm"?
  3. #103  
    Interestingly, one of the harms is revealed in the original question. The notion of having protected sex is indication that there is potential harm.

    However, I know that your question goes beyond that obivous physical risk. And, besides, mankind has invented methods to reduce the risks and/or control the symptoms when those methods are not utilized or when they fail

    So what is the harm?

    The question stems from a poor assumption, namely that sex is just a physical act. Sex is a physical, emotional and a spiritual union. And while the physical union terminates with the completion of the act, the emotional and spiritual unions are not so easily terminated.

    Unlike any other behavior known to man, in sex two people become one. And, What occurs physically is supposed to demonstrate what has occurred spiritually and emotionally.

    The spiritual connection occurs when two people enter a covenant to be terminated only by the death of one or the other - marriage. This is a commitment that is not limited in any way. Incompatibility is not just cause for termination. Irreconcilable differences is not a just cause for termination. In fact irreconcilable differences is one of the hallmarks of covenant, namely that each brings to the other what the other can not provide independently.

    The emotional connection occurs when two people agree to blend there minds, wills, intellects, and imaginations each to the benefit of the other and to their mutual benefit. This is best when it follows the spiritual connection, because the risk of abandonment has already been eliminated, thus creating a safe environment to expose one's self and learn how to merge two lives.

    The physical connections occurs when two people engage in sex. This is best when the prior two connections have been made. Then the sex becomes an expression of that union and of the mutual love between the man and the woman. And, if and when that sex results in pregnancy, that union is the ideal place for the offspring to be nurtured.

    That is the way we were designed to function. Anything less, is harmful.

    How?

    In the same way that using a hammer to drive a screw is damaging. Sure, the screw gets into place, but the ability to re-use the screw or the hole is reduced if not ruined. And, the holding power of the screw is greatly reduced.
  4. #104  
    Quote Originally Posted by clulup
    Hunting and gathering food is the primary purpose of our muscles.
    So, now you have people engaging in an activity which is the opposite, wasting calories on - for instance - playing the trumpet!?

    Shame on you, shopharim, for wasting your god-given muscles on something that isn't the primary purpose! What? You play the trumpet because it gives you or others pleasure - the worse!! You do it for money even?! Goodness gracious, where will this end?!

    And you still owe me some answers, remember?
    LOL!!!
  5. #105  
    Quote Originally Posted by shopharim

    In the same way that using a hammer to drive a screw is damaging. Sure, the screw gets into place, but the ability to re-use the screw or the hole is reduced if not ruined. And, the holding power of the screw is greatly reduced.
    I dont see the link, If a person has consentual protected sex does that mean (s)he is mentily assaultet?
    Don't you think that is taking things way too far? Yes it sometimes happens, but in the mayority of the cases it doesnt.
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  6. #106  
    Quote Originally Posted by ToolkiT
    I dont see the link, If a person has consentual protected sex does that mean (s)he is mentily assaultet?
    Don't you think that is taking things way too far? Yes it sometimes happens, but in the mayority of the cases it doesnt.
    The link is sex outside of marriage cheapens sex. It weakens sex. As I said earlier, it reduces sex to self-serving physical pleasure. It becomes increasingly meaningless to those who engage in it as such. It just becomes something to do, rather than a covenant seal.
  7. #107  
    Quote Originally Posted by shopharim
    The link is sex outside of marriage cheapens sex. It weakens sex. As I said earlier, it reduces sex to self-serving physical pleasure. It becomes increasingly meaningless to those who engage in it as such. It just becomes something to do, rather than a covenant seal.
    How does it cheapen it if they are not married?
    As long as both are consending adults I dont see a harm.
    Sure sex is better if you love the person. but say If I have sex with somebody I don't love, it won't make a difference to your mariage at all, will it?
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  8. #108  
    Quote Originally Posted by ToolkiT
    primary yes, only? No!
    Sorry ONLY, YES!

    Surely those of you arguing on the side that moral values do not require a higher power to have relevance can see this.

    The only reason any creature mates is to procreate. Nature does not care one wit if you are married, in love, living together, gay, 12 years old, use a condom, mating with your neighbor's wife or husband, a dog mating with your leg, etc. Nature simply installed a sex drive and is 100% confident that the overwhelming odds are that 99% of all it's creatures will eventually create offspring no matter how hard the intelligent ones (read humans) try to prevent it.

    Saying that there are other reasons to have sex is putting the cart before the horse. What you want to call "reasons" are part and parcel of what gets you to have sex. Without those "reasons" the species would become extinct.

    Of course, if you believe in a higher power that gives relevance to societal and personal morals, one finds reasons and guidance for when it is appropriate to have sex.

    The funny thing is that the majority of human sexual encounters in our society, especially amongst our teenagers, occur between 2 people who think they are having sex for reasons other than procreation. The result is skyrocketing teenage pregnancy and an abortion rate amongst the general population that we should be ashamed of...... I guess that's not so funny after-all.
  9. #109  
    Quote Originally Posted by ToolkiT
    ...Having different idea's of what you like, different tastes etc etc.
    Like people can not be compatible as partnes on a platonic level so can they be not compatible on a sexual level.
    But if sex is just for getting pregnant I guess that doesnt matter according to the bible (correct me if I simplify things too much)
    Preferences can be reconciled. But, note, in biblically-informed marriage, one has not begin to discover their preferences prior to marriage. So the whole sexual relationship becomes a discovery...a joint-discovery.

    Quote Originally Posted by ToolkiT
    safest sex is with a virgin, even if you are married your partner can cheat on you (don't agree with it, but it does happen),
    While it does happen, even amongst those who call themseleves christians, such behavior is contrary to the covenant
    Quote Originally Posted by ToolkiT
    then again she could have gotten a STD through other ways... so I guess mastrubation is the safest sex... but that is banned by the bible :/
    LOL
    Quote Originally Posted by ToolkiT
    I respectfully disagree with that the best context for sex is procreation.
    I was saying that marrital sex is the best context for procreation. What better context have you identified?
  10. #110  
    Quote Originally Posted by johnbdh
    Sorry ONLY, YES!

    Surely those of you arguing on the side that moral values do not require a higher power to have relevance can see this.

    The only reason any creature mates is to procreate. ...

    The only reason any creature mates is to procreate.
    The funny thing is that the majority of human sexual encounters in our society, especially amongst our teenagers, occur between 2 people who think they are having sex for reasons other than procreation.
    I beg your pardon? It may be possible that some people only ever had sex to procreate, but this is cetainly not true for most. If what you say was true, men (and women) would not have sex if the woman on the pill or what? Sex is an important factor in the bonding of human couples and hence certainly has other meanings in life, apart from procreation and pleasure.

    Besides, even outside of humans, this is not true. For instance, Bonobo chimpanzees have sex all the time: "Sexual intercourse plays a major role in Bonobo society, being used as a greeting, a means of conflict resolution and post-conflict reconciliation, and a favor traded by the females in exchange for food."

    The article linked is worth reading, specially since the bonobo are our closest living relatives, sharing approximately 98.4% of their DNA with us.
    “Reality is that which, when you stop believing in it, doesn't go away.” (Philip K. ****)
  11. #111  
    Quote Originally Posted by ToolkiT
    How does it cheapen it if they are not married?
    As long as both are consending adults I dont see a harm.
    Sure sex is better if you love the person. but say If I have sex with somebody I don't love, it won't make a difference to your mariage at all, will it?
    Your behavior won't directly effect MY marriage. But it will effect on yours and that of your unloved partner. Because each of you will carry the impact of your encounter(s) to the next sex partner, and the next and the next and the next.

    One example of the impact of that on the next relationship is the sense of "incompatibility" you mentioned earlier. The next partner may not be willing to do what the previous partner did. Or your "techniques" that the previous partner relished, are rubbish to the next.

    And most importantly, you have entrusted your seed to one for whom you don't care, and who may or may not care for you. Human's have higher regard for their pets than to leave them in the care of such.
  12. #112  
    Quote Originally Posted by clulup
    I beg your pardon? It may be possible that some people only ever had sex to procreate, but this is cetainly not true for most. If what you say was true, men (and women) would not have sex if the woman on the pill or what? Sex is an important factor in the bonding of human couples and hence certainly has other meanings in life, apart from procreation and pleasure.

    Besides, even outside of humans, this is not true. For instance, Bonobo chimpanzees have sex all the time: "Sexual intercourse plays a major role in Bonobo society, being used as a greeting, a means of conflict resolution and post-conflict reconciliation, and a favor traded by the females in exchange for food."

    The article linked is worth reading, specially since the bonobo are our closest living relatives, sharing approximately 98.4% of their DNA with us.
    You miss the point. You can site 100 "reasons" creatures have sex, but the only purpose of sex is to create offspring. The more reasons you have to mate, as with the Bonobos, the higher the probability of fertilization thus further insuring the survival of the species.

    The ways any species plays out their sex drives are only means to an end - procreation. The reasons we ascribe to having sex are of our making and all of them play right into the hands of natures ingenuous mechanism to procreate.

    Let me put it another way. If sex was not required to procreate, say we just duplicated like an amoeba, in all likelihood we would not have a sex drive. We would find few reasons to engage in sex, that is if sex as we know it would exist at all.
  13. #113  
    Quote Originally Posted by clulup
    I beg your pardon? It may be possible that some people only ever had sex to procreate, but this is cetainly not true for most.
    clulup, after reading your post I realize that your statement restates the point I tried to make at the end of my post.

    I said that the majority of sexual encounters in our society are between 2 people who believe they are having sex for some reason other than to procreate. Just like you said. Unfortunately, the reality is that the purpose of the sexual encounter is by nature to procreate and so, more often then far too many of these couples would like, they often do. This reality is at the root of many of the problems we face with unwanted pregnancies, abortion, welfare, etc.
  14.    #114  
    Our country now has become what it has always hated about the other scary mideast nations -- a bunch of religious finatics.

    joebar, see, that claim is just a misguided attempt to try and explain away the democratic defeat.

    many republicans arenti religious whatsoever! its true a PART of the republican voters this election consisted of the religious, but it was only PART of the whole!
    would you have said the same if the democrats won? " yeah the dems won but we are still a bunch of religious fanatics?"

    fanatics? all people want is to have christmas songs allowed and suddenly they are fanatics? that's a delusional argument, and I just think this is just a desperate attempt to try and rationalize the loss this year, joebar, honestly.

    as toolkit observed, its very easy to criticize, but very difficult to come up with solutions.
    well this is why the dems lost, not to hijack this into an election debate, but people voted for repubs not because of religious fervor, but because the dems failed to come up with any credible solutions to the problems they so vehemently criticized.
  15. #115  
    Quote Originally Posted by shopharim
    I was saying that marrital sex is the best context for procreation. What better context have you identified?
    How 'bout plain old love?
    If 2 people are in love (and don't cheat on others) that the best context IMHO.
    Regardless of their marital state..
    Mariage is a symbol of that love, but not exclusive..
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  16. #116  
    Quote Originally Posted by shopharim
    And most importantly, you have entrusted your seed to one for whom you don't care, and who may or may not care for you. Human's have higher regard for their pets than to leave them in the care of such.
    If you had safe sex you entrusted your seed to a rubber container.. most people dont care very much about rubber containers, exept off course at tupperware parties
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  17. #117  
    Quote Originally Posted by treobk214
    Our country now has become what it has always hated about the other scary mideast nations -- a bunch of religious finatics.

    joebar, see, that claim is just a misguided attempt to try and explain away the democratic defeat.

    many republicans arenti religious whatsoever! its true a PART of the republican voters this election consisted of the religious, but it was only PART of the whole!
    would you have said the same if the democrats won? " yeah the dems won but we are still a bunch of religious fanatics?"

    fanatics? all people want is to have christmas songs allowed and suddenly they are fanatics? that's a delusional argument, and I just think this is just a desperate attempt to try and rationalize the loss this year, joebar, honestly.

    as toolkit observed, its very easy to criticize, but very difficult to come up with solutions.
    well this is why the dems lost, not to hijack this into an election debate, but people voted for repubs not because of religious fervor, but because the dems failed to come up with any credible solutions to the problems they so vehemently criticized.
    Hey don't twist my words
    While most reps are probably not fanatics, some sure are.
    What Joebar was probably refering to that imposing your religous views on others (for example by adding god to the pledge, etc) it can be considered as fanatical religious..
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  18. #118  
    Quote Originally Posted by ToolkiT
    How 'bout plain old love?
    If 2 people are in love (and don't cheat on others) that the best context IMHO.
    Regardless of their marital state..
    Mariage is a symbol of that love, but not exclusive..
    Of course 2 people not married can provide a perfectly good environment for having and raising children without being married.

    There are a lot of reasons, however, that marriage is the preferred family unit. We as a society look for assurances that those taking on the responsibility of raising a family have the maturity, commitment, and wherewithal to complete the task. When a couple marries they do not do so lightly, it involves declaring ones commitment to the marriage. and making promises one to the other to fulfill the roles they assume as husband, wife, father and mother. Marriage goes beyond a declaration of love, and this is a public declaration that the couple will commit their lives to their family.

    A couple that decides to cohabitate make none of these commitments and provide no assurances to society that they are ready for the responsibilities of raising a family. Of course some do just fine, but we as a society get nothing in the way of structure and assurance for the stewardship of our future.

    Of course even with the commitments of marriage, they far too often do not work out and the family suffers just as badly as the unmarried couple in the same boat. But at least it is more difficult to break up the family unit when the couple is married than when they are not. Just ask the single moms out their who saw the father of their children just walk out the door with no feeling of responsibility.

    Another issue that is a potential problem for the children in an unmarried household or otherwise creative family unit, is that the children are not growing up in a normal environment as compared to the society as a whole. It is important for children to feel normal, and in our society the norm is to be part of a family that includes a married father and mother. Unfortunately the married couple destroys this norm by getting divorced, but children of unmarried parents do not feel part of the norm from the get go.

    I could go on and on, but suffice it to say that we as a society has long recognized the value of marrying before having children. Because some unmarried couples make great parents and create superb family units, does not change what anyone who really thinks it through should see that marriage is the optimal path for pursing a family.
  19. #119  
    Further, love (or shall I say Biblical love) is not merely a state one is in, but rather it is a decision one makes. It is a decision to seek and serve the well-being of another without condition.

    Jesus said there is no greater love than Đ
  20. #120  
    when one lays down his/her life for another.

    That is more than two people who say they are in love.
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