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  1.    #21  
    and to further a point, if there were muslim, hindu or jewish traditions expressed equally as christian traditions were in school - who knows? they might even ... gasp... LEARN from one another and better UNDERSTAND each other's differences.

    by blocking everything out, you hide it all away, making even less likely for each religion to learn about the other - thereby possibly further fueling misunderstanding and ...as you very eloquently stated ...bigotry.
  2.    #22  
    carter437, sorry I misunderstood your post. reading over it again, I see your point, a good one.
  3. #23  
    Quote Originally Posted by treobk214
    "mr thumper, huh?".... talk about a bigot, calguna!
    you've just give a fantastic example of a bigot right there!

    listen, even if there were jewish songs sung in school, who would have a problem with it? so what! freedom of expression!
    have you ever heard of an issue where " mr or mrs thumper" made a federal case about a muslim tradition or a jewish song!?

    PLEASE
    excuse me, but I would have an issue with my child singing a song of a religion that I do not believe in, in a public school. My child goes to school to learn....
    not to be taught religious beliefs. That is my job as a parent, to teach him what I believe is right and wrong and how to look for God.
  4. #24  
    There are two different things the "child" is protesting: inability for the school to dictate religious activities (mandated prayer and the Pledge) and the inability for the "child" to express his thoughts ("And anytime my head I bow / Becomes a Federal matter now", "To quote the Good Book makes me liable.") There is a world of difference between the two. One is him wishing to impose his will on others, while the other is others imposing their will (of no expression) on him.
  5. #25  
    Quote Originally Posted by carter437
    Exactly, the point of my response to dathomas. I've asked this question numerous times on this board and no one responds. Maybe you'll have better luck. Notice my previous post. Pretty much saying the same thing you are.
    There's no way to respond that would be useful. I believe that a sense of right and wrong and moral values can exist without a God. You don't. We're never going to come to an agreement on it.

    The article you linked does nothing to prove to me that I am wrong. In fact, it uses its conclusion as one of it's basic assumptions, providing circular logic. The first part of the "atheistic view of morals" is:
    Contrast this with the atheistic hypothesis. First, if atheism is true, objective moral values do not exist. If God does not exist, then what is the foundation for moral values?
    That is, he assumes that if atheism is true then moral values do not exist, and uses God to show why. That only works if you believe the conclusions, which I do not.
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  6.    #26  
    lewis, that's a good point. Im not meaning that everyone is to be taught about every religion in school, all I was saying was that if certain harmless songs from any religion are asked to be played or recited, that would be fine, so long as the traditional christian ones are respected in the same manner.

    im not saying there should be religion taught at school. I agree with you totally. but my basic point in a nutshell is that we should be able to express faiths freely and equally in school - a simple prayer or a harmless song, of any faith, that's all - not suffocating every last remnant of a tradition from within a school altogether.

    I thought we everyone always screams for freedom of expression here! well what's going on?
  7. #27  
    Quote Originally Posted by treobk214
    I thought we everyone always screams for freedom of expression here! well what's going on?
    Freedom of expression on your own time with your own money; not on my tax dollars.
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  8. #28  
    Quote Originally Posted by metsfan
    I believe that a sense of right and wrong and moral values can exist without a God.
    I accept that premise.

    What "God" or "god" provides in the debate of moral values is a static frame of reference for the discussion.

    My question is intended to ascertain what frame of reference can be used in the debate of morals without a god/God.

    The debate of morals and "right and wrong" is an ought-based interaction. What is the source of "ought"? The majority?
  9. #29  
    Quote Originally Posted by treobk214
    lewis, that's a good point. Im not meaning that everyone is to be taught about every religion in school, all I was saying was that if certain harmless songs from any religion are asked to be played or recited, that would be fine, so long as the traditional christian ones are respected in the same manner.

    im not saying there should be religion taught at school. I agree with you totally. but my basic point in a nutshell is that we should be able to express faiths freely and equally in school - a simple prayer or a harmless song, of any faith, that's all - not suffocating every last remnant of a tradition from within a school altogether.

    I thought we everyone always screams for freedom of expression here! well what's going on?
    For me the difference is :what you consider harmless, might not be so harmless for others. Others might take offense to religious songs being played or recited in school. It can undermine what you as a parent are trying to teach at home.
  10. #30  
    Quote Originally Posted by metsfan
    There's no way to respond that would be useful. I believe that a sense of right and wrong and moral values can exist without a God. You don't. We're never going to come to an agreement on it.

    The article you linked does nothing to prove to me that I am wrong. In fact, it uses its conclusion as one of it's basic assumptions, providing circular logic. The first part of the "atheistic view of morals" is:

    That is, he assumes that if atheism is true then moral values do not exist, and uses God to show why. That only works if you believe the conclusions, which I do not.
    First, thanks for reading the article, I didn't think anyone would.

    You believe this but why? Seriously how does this make sense. The moment you state anything is wrong, I'll just say its right. The argument is not circular but this -- If God does not exist, then morality is just a human convention, that is to say, morality is wholly subjective and non-binding.

    If there is no God, we're all products of randomness and chemical reactions. There are two paths I could take:

    1. Inherently humans of no more worth than a shark or an apple and there is no basis to elevate human morality above that of say a lion. A lion will kill other cubs is it wrong for one to kill anothers child?

    2. We're all just chemical reactions governed by our senses and genetic make up, so how can anyone be accountable since we're just following our programming.

    The question I then have is how can there be no God (moral lawgiver) and yet morality be objective. Or more simply was the holocaust wrong? If so why?


    “If chance be the Father of all flesh,
    disaster is his rainbow in the sky,
    and when you hear:
    'State of Emergency! Sniper Kills Ten!
    Troops on Rampage! Whites go Looting!
    Bomb Blasts School!'
    It is but the sound of man worshipping his maker.”
  11. #31  
    A child's freedom to express him/herself has always been, and always will be there. That's not the issue. The issue appears when the child's faith does not consist of the same factors as that of which the school practices. Yes, they don't have to participate but such scenarios create confusion in the child. Those children feel different, left out and sometimes just plain wrong.

    This is an unnecessary burden on the child, parents, and/or school. Again, school is not a place where we go to practice or learn about religion(s). That is what Temples, Churches, Mosques, etc. are for. You can bring your faith wherever you go. But save the religious practices for home or their designated institutions.
    Last edited by skillllllz; 11/30/2004 at 03:18 PM.
    .
  12. #32  
    Quote Originally Posted by treobk214
    "mr thumper, huh?".... talk about a bigot, calguna!
    you've just give a fantastic example of a bigot right there!

    listen, even if there were jewish songs sung in school, who would have a problem with it? so what! freedom of expression!
    have you ever heard of an issue where " mr or mrs thumper" made a federal case about a muslim tradition or a jewish song!?

    PLEASE
    I guess we need to clear up what the issue is. If student choose to pray at school, to themselves or in a Christian (islam, hindu, ...) club they have that right, now. I have nothing against, it is happening already all over the country. If someone dies, at school gatherings they have moments of silence, now if Little Johnny Thumper chooses to pray during that moment of silence that is his perogative. But to have administration, or teachers cram thier religious beliefs on the entire school population, that is a different story.

    If we are talking about a school led prayer, song or whatever, that is what we have issues with. And although you, may not have issues with it, I guarantee there are a thousands who so mind thier child singing Hare Krishna chants and dancing. Ands not only the Mr and Mrs Thumpers of the world.
  13.    #33  
    this goes beyond just what's going on inside classroom walls, but what I find truly disturbing is that video games depicting jfk being shot over and over again are ok. call of duty, doom, mortal kombat,etc all are perfectly fine with these parents.

    but A CHRISTMAS SONG, is found to be the most damaging of all.

    folks.... GO FIGURE.
  14. #34  
    Quote Originally Posted by treobk214
    this goes beyond just what's going on inside classroom walls, but what I find truly disturbing is that video games depicting jfk being shot over and over again are ok. call of duty, doom, mortal kombat,etc all are perfectly fine with these parents.

    but A CHRISTMAS SONG, is found to be the most damaging of all.

    folks.... GO FIGURE.
    so only the parents who are complaining about prayer or chritmas songs are the ones who let their kids buy that crap. I think you sir a living in a dream world.
  15. #35  
    Quote Originally Posted by LewisL77
    For me the difference is :what you consider harmless, might not be so harmless for others. Others might take offense to religious songs being played or recited in school. It can undermine what you as a parent are trying to teach at home.
    Is no one trying to teach critical thinking at home?

    Free condoms undermine what some people are trying to teach in their homes. Yet, the supporters of the doctrine of "safe-sex" are free to distribute their materials in the same schools. And, yes, I know that the availability of condoms does not force the children of abstinence families to partake. But, would not the "offensiveness" of that belief system qualify for exclusion under this rationale?
  16. #36  
    If you think right and wrong cannot be debated without the presumption of a deity(s) you are incorrect.
  17. #37  
    At least with the video games and the media, you have a choice to allow such material into you're child's view or not. With school, you're not in control. How can you be sure what they imply or "hint" at is what you want for your child or not? You have no control whatsoever! Im sorry, but if anyone sent their child off to school and they said a "harmless" prayer in the name of the devil (yes, it is a faith and it I respect it just as much as I do not condone it) they would have a heartattack.
    .
  18. #38  
    Quote Originally Posted by skillllllz
    ...Yes, they don't have to participate but such scenarios create confusion in the child. Those children feel different, left out and sometimes just plain wrong.

    This is an unnecessary burden on the child, parents, and/or school. ......
    Intriguing angle in the conversation. Especially, given that most if not all who achieve "greatness" in life have to separate from the pack; have to be different; have to know how to be the outsider.
  19. #39  
    Quote Originally Posted by daThomas
    If you think right and wrong cannot be debated without the presumption of a deity(s) you are incorrect.

    That premise is accepted. Care to address the questions that followed?
  20. #40  
    Quote Originally Posted by carter437
    You believe this but why? Seriously how does this make sense. The moment you state anything is wrong, I'll just say its right. The argument is not circular but this -- If God does not exist, then morality is just a human convention, that is to say, morality is wholly subjective and non-binding.
    I don't have a problem with that. There are some things that most people consider "moral," and others which people disagree on. I don't think there has to be one right answer.

    1. Inherently humans of no more worth than a shark or an apple and there is no basis to elevate human morality above that of say a lion. A lion will kill other cubs is it wrong for one to kill anothers child?

    Yes, it's wrong. Again, I don't need God to tell me so. I just believe it. You're free to disagree (though not kill, because regardless of morality, it is detrimental to society, hence illegal. The law [in my opinion] is not based on morality, but rather progress of society, as are most laws.)
    2. We're all just chemical reactions governed by our senses and genetic make up, so how can anyone be accountable since we're just following our programming.
    This I'll need some time to think about, but to me it's more a question of free will by science as opposed to by God.
    The question I then have is how can there be no God (moral lawgiver) and yet morality be objective.
    Again, by calling God the "moral lawgiver," you assume the conclusion we are trying to prove or disprove. And as I said before, it's not a requirement for me for morality to be objective.
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