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  1. #181  
    Quote Originally Posted by sxtg
    Most animals also lick thier own A**! So what! Humans are not animals!
    mmmm,then what are we? we are not minerals... Aliens?
    <IMG WIDTH="200" HEIGHT="50" SRC=http://www.visorcentral.com/images/visorcentral.gif> (ex)VisorCentral Discussion Moderator
    Do files get embarrassed when they get unzipped?
  2. #182  
    Quote Originally Posted by sxtg
    Most animals also lick thier own A**! So what! Humans are not animals!
    Fact is, homosexuality is very common on nature, so it certainly cannot be a "crime against nature", as you claimed. Besides, if god is opposed to homosexuality (as you assume), why did he make homosexuality such a common trait in nature?
    “Reality is that which, when you stop believing in it, doesn't go away.” (Philip K. ****)
  3. #183  
    Some animals also kill and eat thier young. Some animals abandon thier young within minutes of giving birth. Some animals kill thier mate during intercourse..... I hope you are not suggesting humans should behave this way as well.
  4. #184  
    Quote Originally Posted by sxtg
    Some animals also kill and eat thier young. Some animals abandon thier young within minutes of giving birth. Some animals kill thier mate during intercourse..... I hope you are not suggesting humans should behave this way as well.
    Some animals live under water, some jump off high cliffs... no, I don't suggest we should do that.

    All the examples you mentioned make perfect sense for the given animal species (at least those examples which are real), and none of them say anything about why homosexuality should be a crime (against god/nature).

    It's just bad because it is bad and you don't like it, right?
    “Reality is that which, when you stop believing in it, doesn't go away.” (Philip K. ****)
  5. #185  
    No its bad because my BIBLE tells me so
  6. #186  
    Domestic violence is also very common in Human relationships. Common doesn't equal acceptable.
  7. #187  
    Quote Originally Posted by sxtg
    No its bad because my BIBLE tells me so
    The bible tells you many things you don't follow, like never to work on Saturdays/Sundays, not eating pork, that it is ok to have slaves from neighbouring countries, that one has to kill the owner of an ox it that ox kills somebody else, that you should offer your other cheek when somebody slaps you, that rich people cannot go to heaven, etc.

    Your choice of what the bible tells you is very arbitrary. That is up to you of course, but it certainly doesn't make your argument above any better.
    “Reality is that which, when you stop believing in it, doesn't go away.” (Philip K. ****)
  8. #188  
    Quote Originally Posted by shopharim
    I am able to set aside my belief for the sake of discussion (and, as necessary reinstate a modified belief after the discussion). So, my bias aside, I want to understand your rationale. For example, in the rules of the experiment, you state that "God cannot be a...part of the natural universe." However, you require that the "prooving" experience has to be physical.

    If I'm combining those two concepts correctly, the only proof that could be acceptable (according to rule #3) would subsequently be voided by rule #1.

    Is my reasoning sound on this conclusion?
    No I do not think that is true. What I am really trying exclude with rule #1 is the idea that God is nature. We often hear someone say that God is all around us. I can accept the idea that God uses or must abide by the physical rules of the universe to create and rule over the universe, but in so doing he cannot be part of that universe. Without this supernatural persona, does not God then become nothing more than an alien being? Some believe that this is in fact who God really was/is.

    Your question implies that someone outside of the physical universe cannot make physical contact with someone within the physical universe. I do not know if this is true, and so did not rule it out in my exercise. If, however, this is true and God cannot be sensed by someone in the physical world outside of ones mind, then I would conclude that one cannot know that God exists nor can one know that God does not exist.

    I personally believe that if God does exist, that we will eventually know that he exists either in the short term through death or in the long term through science. My suspicion is that if that happens we will discover that in fact he is a every bit a part of the physical universe as we are now. Until that day, however, unless God makes physical contact with me in this lifetime, I will not have knowledge of his existence.
  9. #189  
    Quote Originally Posted by clulup
    The bible tells you many things you don't follow, like never to work on Saturdays/Sundays, not eating pork, that it is ok to have slaves from neighbouring countries, that one has to kill the owner of an ox it that ox kills somebody else, that you should offer your other cheek when somebody slaps you, that rich people cannot go to heaven, etc.

    Your choice of what the bible tells you is very arbitrary. That is up to you of course, but it certainly doesn't make your argument above any better.

    Yes but you forgot to finish the book!
  10. #190  
    Quote Originally Posted by sxtg
    Domestic violence is also very common in Human relationships. Common doesn't equal acceptable.
    I said homosexuality is common in nature and therefor it cannot be a crime against nature.

    I didn't say homosexuality is acceptable because it is common. Homosexuality is acceptable because it doesn't do any harm.

    Domestic violence is harmful for those who are subject to it. That is why it is not acceptable. I am sure you see the difference.
    “Reality is that which, when you stop believing in it, doesn't go away.” (Philip K. ****)
  11. #191  
    Quote Originally Posted by sxtg
    Yes but you forgot to finish the book!
    Finish the book? I did finish it actually, but I don't see the connection.
    “Reality is that which, when you stop believing in it, doesn't go away.” (Philip K. ****)
  12. #192  
    The bible also says that we are all sinners. And that you cant get to heaven on ones own merits etc.... So to say my choice in what the bible tells me is arbitrary isn't accurate. I know I am not perfect, I also know I am a sinner. However the sins I commit don't become less sinnful just because I am the one commiting them. I don't expect society to embrace and endorse my sins.
  13. #193  
    Quote Originally Posted by clulup
    Some animals live under water, some jump off high cliffs... no, I don't suggest we should do that.

    All the examples you mentioned make perfect sense for the given animal species (at least those examples which are real), and none of them say anything about why homosexuality should be a crime (against god/nature).

    It's just bad because it is bad and you don't like it, right?
    Intentionally not addressing the rightness or wrongness of the practice of homosexuality, I ask does the practice "make perfect sense" for humans? If so, how so? If not, why not?
  14. #194  
    Quote Originally Posted by sxtg
    The bible also says that we are all sinners. And that you cant get to heaven on ones own merits etc.... So to say my choice in what the bible tells me is arbitrary isn't accurate. I know I am not perfect, I also know I am a sinner. However the sins I commit don't become less sinnful just because I am the one commiting them. I don't expect society to embrace and endorse my sins.
    So to sum up we can say that you condemn homosexuality as a crime against god and nature because the bible mentions it in a negative light, while you accept e.g. things like being rich although Jesus himself says rich people don't go to heaven?

    Frankly, that doesn't make sense to me, but as I said, it is up to you.
    “Reality is that which, when you stop believing in it, doesn't go away.” (Philip K. ****)
  15. #195  
    Quote Originally Posted by clulup
    So to sum up we can say that you condemn homosexuality as a crime against god and nature because the bible mentions it in a negative light, while you accept e.g. things like being rich although Jesus himself says rich people don't go to heaven?

    Frankly, that doesn't make sense to me, but as I said, it is up to you.
    Doesn't diminish your point, but Jesus didn't saying that "rich people don't go to heaven." In fact, when he spoke of the "difficulty" of rich people entering eternal life, his disciples were astonished (recall {or be aware} that several of them were business men). Jesus addressed their concerns by confirming that "with men it is impossible, but not with God. or with God all things are possible" (Mar 10:23-27)
  16. #196  
    Quote Originally Posted by shopharim
    Intentionally not addressing the rightness or wrongness of the practice of homosexuality, I ask does the practice "make perfect sense" for humans? If so, how so? If not, why not?
    True, homosexuals don't get children, so if you want to maximize the number of offspring in a society, it is not optimal. On the other hand, maximising birth rate is hardly a necessity or a moral obligation. In this respect, homosexuality is not any worse than being single, being in a convent, or any other form of not having children.
    “Reality is that which, when you stop believing in it, doesn't go away.” (Philip K. ****)
  17. #197  
    Quote Originally Posted by shopharim
    Intentionally not addressing the rightness or wrongness of the practice of homosexuality, I ask does the practice "make perfect sense" for humans? If so, how so? If not, why not?
    Personally it doesnt make sense to me, but it doesn't make sense to me why women like men either
    If so many people feel that way (being gay I mean) must mean something, seeing it in nature too must mean something too.
    So yeah it makes sense for humans...
    <IMG WIDTH="200" HEIGHT="50" SRC=http://www.visorcentral.com/images/visorcentral.gif> (ex)VisorCentral Discussion Moderator
    Do files get embarrassed when they get unzipped?
  18. #198  
    Quote Originally Posted by ToolkiT
    Personally it doesnt make sense to me, but it doesn't make sense to me why women like men either
    If so many people feel that way (being gay I mean) must mean something, seeing it in nature too must mean something too.
    So yeah it makes sense for humans...

    Some animals refuse to breed with the same female more than once, thereby producing offspring with several different mates in thier lifetime.

    While this may be all to common in humans as well, I ask- does this also add to society's well being?
  19. #199  
    Clulup,

    I think its interesting that being such a liberal, you would choose the animal kingdom to support your views.

    The majority of animals will abandon if not kill the weak for no other reason than survival of the fittest. Every aspect of thier being revolves around surviving another day. Does this make sense for humans? Probabably as a species, but not as Humans. Doesn't the very core of that go against your liberal views on how we as a society should behave?
  20. #200  
    Quote Originally Posted by ToolkiT
    ...but it doesn't make sense to me why women like men either ...
    LOL

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