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  1. #21  
    Quote Originally Posted by cellmatrix
    I work towards this goal in my own involvement in university admissions. But, on the other side of this, unfortunately, many of those who cry about quotas seem to have nothing else to offer for this problem.
    So if an English guy and a Nigerian guy are seeking the same position, you would give the Nigerian guy points not given to the English guy, because of the color of his skin? That's crazy.

    I'm not crying about "quotas", except that most quotas are race-based, and not truly diversity-based. The solution to the problem is easy: seek true diversity on experience and background, not skin color.
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  2. #22  
    Quote Originally Posted by heberman
    There are a lot of different interpretations by fellow "christians" about what is taught in the bible. Perhaps your anger comes from seeing people intepret biblical teachings different than your own views.
    I don't get angry when people interpret things different I get angry when it used as a political tool. Case in point:
    I got angry when I found out that born-again Christians were told in their congregations in Florida to vote for Bush, since he was "God's man".
    My born-again cousin in Orlando called me and told me I should vote for Bush. I tried to explain to her why I wasn't. She then started quoting the bible to me.
    We go through similar conversations every few years. We end up not talking for a few years. I guess I'm just as stubborn.
    Like I say to my wife, just before she stops talking to me for a few hours (that is, until I apologize). If I agree with her, we BOTH will be wrong.
    Remember: You are an unique, individual person...just like everyone else
  3. #23  
    Quote Originally Posted by cellmatrix
    We are a long way from true equity in our society, and not just skin color, but in many ways. To give an example of economics, there is an increasing division of the wealthy and the poor in this country and educational empowerment is the way to overcome these differences. There are many ways to overcome these differences besides quotas, and I will continue to contribute in my individual way, but I am afraid that the current administration holds this goal at a very low priority.
    Cell, this comes down to two different viewpoints. Do you want equality in opportunity, or equality in outcome? People are different and make different choices. Some people succeed, others don't. That's the way the world works.
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  4. #24  
    at my job, I hired a muslim, a jew, a russian woman and a hispanic man. You should see the heated discussions we get into. I think, however, that our team has gotten closer together. I did fire a 2 white guys, but that was because they were incompetent.
    Diversity is a great thing. It should be of all races, religions and economical status.
    It is very hard to hire a rich guy, however
    Remember: You are an unique, individual person...just like everyone else
  5. #25  
    Quote Originally Posted by KypDurron
    I don't get angry when people interpret things different I get angry when it used as a political tool.
    I guess I don't see the difference in how both major political parties use religion. How many black churches did John Kerry/Bill Clinton/Al Gore/Jimmy Carter attend with Jesse Jackson or another prominent black church leader where the congregation was exorted to support the Democrat?

    I guess I'm just as stubborn.
    Aren't we all!
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  6. #26  
    Quote Originally Posted by heberman
    The solution to the problem is easy: seek true diversity on experience and background, not skin color.
    It really boils down to what experience and background you value in your criteria.
  7. #27  
    Quote Originally Posted by KypDurron
    I work at one of the top Institutes in the world when it comes to solving world problems. (Energy, Climate & Society, Health, Ecosystems, Poverty, Nutrition, etc..).
    etc... etc...
    Ummm...they dont seem to be doing a very good job.
    Well behaved women rarely make history
  8.    #28  
    Quote Originally Posted by KypDurron
    It is very hard to hire a rich guy, however
    You can give me a lot of money and a job, if you want. That'll take care of any nagging rich-bias you feel you may have.
  9. #29  
    Quote Originally Posted by Chick-Dance
    Fact: Numbers don’t lie.
    I don't want to change subject, but this wasn't a fact: Numbers lie very often, most likely even more often than words.... (you know that, I know )
    “Reality is that which, when you stop believing in it, doesn't go away.” (Philip K. ****)
  10. #30  
    Quote Originally Posted by clulup
    I don't want to change subject, but this wasn't a fact: Numbers lie very often, most likely even more often than words.... (you know that, I know )
    That's only true 90-percent of the time.
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  11. #31  
    Quote Originally Posted by clairegrrl
    Ummm...they dont seem to be doing a very good job.
    Now...now...please explain, not instigate. If YOU were in charge of 'fixing' global poverty in 20 years, have sustainable development in 3rd world countries, have country-wide economic reforms, cut HIV cases by 50%, control malaria outbreaks in Africa, how would YOU do it? how can the U.S. help? How much money would you spend? and finally, how would you realize if you are doing a good job or not?
    Remember: You are an unique, individual person...just like everyone else
  12. #32  
    Quote Originally Posted by cellmatrix
    It really boils down to what experience and background you value in your criteria.
    Here is my real-world experience with racial quotas: My good friend from Orange County comes from a rich family - his dad was Andre Aggasi's orthopedic surgeon. Other children are lawyers and doctors. Their ancestry is 100-percent Jewish, and the parents were born in Argentina. Because of his financial status, my friend never learned to do his laundry (it was all sent out to the cleaners) or even mow the lawn (the gardners did that). Unless you get the wrong impression, my friend was and is a truly good person and has good values.

    However, his parents' Argentinian birth qualified my friend as a "minority" for law school admissions. Being part of this preferred category allowed him extra points for admissions qualifications. Once in law school, he received a minority scholorship, free tutoring, and free job placement help.

    Of course, the benefits that went to him were limited to a certain number of "minorities, meaning that another student didn't get the admission points, scholarships, tutoring, or job placement benefits because they were taken by my friend.

    This is an example of the stupid results of race-based university quotas advocated by well-meaning but misguided university administrators. Tell me how giving my friend these substantial benefits helped achieve an "equal" society or promoted diversity at the law school? They didn't, and the system hurt another, more needy student.
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  13.    #33  
    I thought it was 2?
  14. #34  
    Quote Originally Posted by KypDurron
    If YOU were in charge of 'fixing' global poverty in 20 years...
    Im not in charge of fixing global poverty or anything anything else for that matter. BTW...whats the difference in track records between the "top" institute and some of the lesser institutes.
    Well behaved women rarely make history
  15. #35  
    Quote Originally Posted by KRamsauer
    I thought it was 2?
    It depends on your number system. it could be 11.

    Back to University Diversity, I remember college as THE most diverse place I have ever been at. I met people from all parts of the world. I also remember that most protests take place there. I remember at least 4 times the Administrative Building was taken over by students for different reasons, from cops having guns on campus to getting rid of diversity programs.

    As for racial quotas, the great american, Chris Rock, said something like (Im paraphrasing here, nothing verbatim):

    I understand that some people may be getting over other people just because of their race. Keep in mind that minorities where getting discriminated against since the 1700s to....oh...1965. So if a minority gets a job because over a non-minority with the same qualifications...I think that's Ok.

    As for your Argentinian friend getting into a college program, that is not an example of a program not working, that is an example of a person scamming the system to get ahead. He is the one with ethical issues, not the affirmitive action program at his Law School. Lawyers know the difference between Legal and Ethical...He did something that was Legal. My opinion, and my opinion only, is that he did something un-ethical.

    Find out how many kids where in this equal opportunity program. I bet he wasn't the only kid from a rich background that took advantage of the system. But I also think that the majority of people that participated in that program benefited greatly and have affected society.

    Think of Welfare. That system is abused all the time. But it does help MANY, MANY people. Should we get rid of it? NO. Should it be reformed? YES.
    Last edited by KypDurron; 11/19/2004 at 03:59 PM.
    Remember: You are an unique, individual person...just like everyone else
  16. #36  
    Quote Originally Posted by clairegrrl
    Im not in charge of fixing global poverty or anything anything else for that matter. BTW...whats the difference in track records between the "top" institute and some of the lesser institutes.
    But you felt that we were doing a bad job without knowing who we are.
    I don't know what the difference in track record is (not sure if there is such a metric anyway). You could grade different institutes in the way they help other people (by money, by work hours, by countries helped, by improvement of economy). You could grade countries you helped by other things (production, porverty levels, disease control, export/imports). Others are more opinionated (improvements of women's status in a country, child exploitation, illiterate level improvements, murder rates, etc.).
    What makes one the "top"? I guess it is opinionated. Anyone that is doing their part in improving the world is helping.
    You feel that organizations aren't doing enough, though, so I ask you:
    what kind of metric are you to measure improvements? what is enough? why is not enough being done?
    Remember: You are an unique, individual person...just like everyone else
  17. #37  
    Quote Originally Posted by heberman
    So if an English guy and a Nigerian guy are seeking the same position, you would give the Nigerian guy points not given to the English guy, because of the color of his skin? That's crazy.
    I'm not crying about "quotas", except that most quotas are race-based, and not truly diversity-based. The solution to the problem is easy: seek true diversity on experience and background, not skin color.
    In your example, I would give no preference to either one, they are both foreign and neither would be an under-represented US minority.

    Let me give you an example of two students in the US. One student came from a well financed school where the curriculum was centered around getting them into college, the student had time to take a college SAT course and the student achieved a 3.5 GPA and a 1200 SAT. The other student came from a poorly funded high school where most students dropped out, and this student was too busy working to be able to take a college prep course but nonetheless had a GPA of 3.3 and an 1100 SAT.

    Which one would you choose? Personally, I think that I would choose the student in category 2 because they showed that they could overcome obstacles and did not require hand holding to succeed. I would say that regardless of the color of their skin.

    If there are a whole lot more of category 1 students who are white and a whole lot more category 2 students who are minority, is one being prejudiced to admit minority students who have a lower GPA and SAT than white students?

    No, like you say, you need to look at the entire background and experience.
  18. #38  
    Quote Originally Posted by heberman
    Here is my real-world experience with racial quotas: My good friend from Orange County comes from a rich family - his dad was Andre Aggasi's orthopedic surgeon. Other children are lawyers and doctors. Their ancestry is 100-percent Jewish, and the parents were born in Argentina. Because of his financial status, my friend never learned to do his laundry (it was all sent out to the cleaners) or even mow the lawn (the gardners did that). Unless you get the wrong impression, my friend was and is a truly good person and has good values.

    However, his parents' Argentinian birth qualified my friend as a "minority" for law school admissions. Being part of this preferred category allowed him extra points for admissions qualifications. Once in law school, he received a minority scholorship, free tutoring, and free job placement help.

    Of course, the benefits that went to him were limited to a certain number of "minorities, meaning that another student didn't get the admission points, scholarships, tutoring, or job placement benefits because they were taken by my friend.

    This is an example of the stupid results of race-based university quotas advocated by well-meaning but misguided university administrators. Tell me how giving my friend these substantial benefits helped achieve an "equal" society or promoted diversity at the law school? They didn't, and the system hurt another, more needy student.
    Yes that is a stupid policy I agree. Perhaps we are looking at things in a similar light here with regard to admissions and a person's background.
  19. #39  
    Quote Originally Posted by cellmatrix
    Which one would you choose? Personally, I think that I would choose the student in category 2 because they showed that they could overcome obstacles and did not require hand holding to succeed. I would say that regardless of the color of their skin.

    If there are a whole lot more of category 1 students who are white and a whole lot more category 2 students who are minority, is one being prejudiced to admit minority students who have a lower GPA and SAT than white students?

    No, like you say, you need to look at the entire background and experience.
    I agree with your analysis, and hope your result would be the same if the "colors of skin" for each category were reversed.
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  20. #40  
    did you not see that I said that?
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