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  1. #81  
    Quote Originally Posted by mbd26
    Clairegrrl: yeah, I know. But as a CU Alum I know Boulder's a liitle blue dot there (unless it has changed quite a bit, it has ben some time)
    No...it's still a blue dot. Like a grain of blue sand on a red beach
    Well behaved women rarely make history
  2. #82  
    Quote Originally Posted by clairegrrl
    No...it's still a blue dot. Like a grain of blue sand on a red beach
    Or perhaps a pea under the mattress of the princess
    << My command as we escape Palm HQ with a new Pre 3>>.

    Treo 300 >> Treo 600 >> Treo 650 >> Treo 755 >> Instinct >> Pre- >> TouchPad
  3. #83  
    Quote Originally Posted by tjd414
    Or perhaps a pea under the mattress of the princess
    OK
    Well behaved women rarely make history
  4. #84  
    Clairegrrl, thanks for that interesting link. My wife and in-laws are Dutch, and living in Turkey we are surrounded by these issues.

    (Hmmm.. she lives in Boulder, follows PBS and yet supports Bush, an interesting breed indeed! )
    -mbd26
  5. #85  
    Quote Originally Posted by clairegrrl
    There was a report last night on PBS about Holland and the Muslim population. "A recent national poll found that more than a third of Dutch citizens feel threatened by Muslims. Fears of terrorism also contribute to Europeans' ambivalence toward the continent's more than 12 million Muslims, especially in the wake of the Madrid train bombings of last March. Those attacks, planned and carried out by Islamic militants, killed nearly 200 people."

    I was also suprised to learn that there is a requirement in Holland that Muslim clerics use the Dutch language in religious services.

    Legalized prostitution and marijuana use dont necessarily make for a tolerant nation. If people are scared, I guess everything else is second.

    http://www.pbs.org/wnet/religionande...746/cover.html

    which of course is in complete contrast to your fantastically liberated view of muslims...it's already been established that basically you know zip all about Europe, it's cultures, diversity of race, religion etc etc... have you ever been to Europe ?? If not then do us all a favour, save yourself some time and stop trawling through obscure websites looking frantically for petty ammunition in favour of your already jaundiced view of Europe....thanks
  6. #86  
    Quote Originally Posted by murrayalex
    which of course is in complete contrast to your fantastically liberated view of muslims...it's already been established that basically you know zip all about Europe, it's cultures, diversity of race, religion etc etc... have you ever been to Europe ?? If not then do us all a favour, save yourself some time and stop trawling through obscure websites looking frantically for petty ammunition in favour of your already jaundiced view of Europe....thanks
    PBS is hardly obscure, but I would guess that you wouldnt know that. I just find it interesting that so many of our European friends in this thread seem to take such joy in slamming the US, it's President and those people that voted for him. Just suggesting you take a look in your own back yard for a change laddie
    Well behaved women rarely make history
  7. #87  
    This whole moral values issue is the real heart of the matter when it comes to the divisive nature of politics nowadays. I think it has been this way for the last 10 years, since the 94 gubernatorial election.

    This insinuation that to be a democrat is to be immoral is insulting. Democrats have high moral values that they believe in, and thier agendas reflect that. It is very upseting for the republicans when democrats say their moral values are flawed. Start getting to this level and you have some really pissed off people on both sides. And this is what has been happening these past ten years, in my view, it has gone from a discussion of policies to an emotional rhetoric.

    One thing the republicans are extremely good at is organizing what they say from top down into a unified message. They get on the internet, and talk shows, and are quoted in interviews all saying the same rallying points. They have excellent party discipline, and they know that being able to deliver thier message clearly is the key to success. I believe that this helped the republicans a lot in the last elections.

    I think that the democrats are finally starting to realize this, that they could have articulated thier message with extremely clear moral bottom lines just as well as republicans. Obviously Kerry had his major shortcomings in this area. He was unable to distill his message down to a very clear "moral of the story". I predict that you will see changes in the democrats on this in the future.
    Last edited by cellmatrix; 11/05/2004 at 08:03 AM.
  8. #88  
    Quote Originally Posted by clairegrrl
    PBS is hardly obscure, but I would guess that you wouldnt know that. I just find it interesting that so many of our European friends in this thread seem to take such joy in slamming the US, it's President and those people that voted for him. Just suggesting you take a look in your own back yard for a change laddie
    ha ha..."laddie" I like that....however, let it not obscure the fact you are patently paranoid...as for this back yard nonsense...find me a post by me where I am slamming the US, it's President and the people who voted for him. Happy hunting.
  9. #89  
    Quote Originally Posted by mbd26
    ...So the fact is (or, rather, seems to me to be...) that 51% of Americans do not care about anything the government actually DOES, only about what people in the Gov't SAY or say they BELIEVE. Everyone knows there's a man behind the curtain pulling the drawstrings, but as long as the Wizard looks good, they're happy!
    As strange as this may seem to you, some people may just actually agree (not necessarily with every policy, but with enough to entrust governmental functions to one person/party over another).
  10. #90  
    Quote Originally Posted by mbd26
    As an expatriate American I know all too well about the view of US abroad.

    But leaving that aside for now, and focussing on domestic issues, what is amazing to me and shocking to "blue America" is the success with which the Republicans have conned the "heartland" into supporting policies which are against their interests, objectively. The economic and environmental policies of the Bush administration hurt middle-class Red Americans far more than those of us who live near water (is that why we got blue?). But Cheney and Co convince the voters in the heartland to support tax breaks for the rich and secretive, possibly illegal, gov't business alliances by throwing up "Values" at every turn.
    With all due respect, I think you are demonstrating another reason why the republicans have a solid grip on a majority of the country's land: people hate being told others know what's best.

    Leaving that aside, it isn't an objective truth that the administrations tax/environmental policies "hurt" middle-class Red Americans (wow this is getting crazy with labels) more than middle-class "Blue Americans." Anything that more efficiently allocates capital and resources is bound to lift all boats.
  11. #91  
    I agree with KRamsauer that we need more labels!!

    Can someone please use a "Blue" American Sailor, "Red" sea of Blood, "Red" Republican Ship Foundering on the "Blue" shore of Democratic liberal land analogy?????......I am dying to make one up but it's too much effort.......
    "Do the Chickens have large talons?" Napoleon Dynamite
  12. #92  
    republicans con the heartland?

    what about the dems conning the water states?

    what about all the democratic leadership images?
    a) ted kennedy drowning an
    innocent girl in a river by
    driving the car into the water. and slivering away like some snake to a nearby hotel to cover it up? and ted kennedy NEVER went to trial!

    b) gary condit's murder of chandra levy. come on, WE ALL KNOW he did it.

    c) clinton's sex scandal

    d) jim mcgreevey's apptmt of a completely inexperienced israeli to a position of HOMELAND SECURITY in nj.

    e) soros - need I say more?

    f) jesse jackson - fathered and abandoned many, many children, yet he expounds on moral issues?

    g) al sharpton - need I say more?

    h) robert c byrd - kkk guy

    I ) charlie rengel - proposes the draft, and then tried to scare america by saying BUSH will be the one proposing it. - disingenuous snakes!

    j) social security - dems tap into social security to pay for their "giveaway" programs for the needy or whatever it may be - con, you say? interesting.

    k) nj has long been considered one of (if not THE MOST) the most corrupt state politically in america - and its all democratic.
    and you say repubs are conning america with what they say and then actually do?

    this argument is shocking.
    talldog is correct. with arguments such as these being made, repubs will have nothing to worry about from dems' candidates.. they will indeed keep themselves in the wilderness for generations to come.. 'do as I say not as I do' seems to be the democrats way of leading by example.
  13. #93  
    Yes KRam, but as I said in post 84: don't all politicos (blue, red, green, orange...) tell people that they know what is best for America? That's politics, right? Every day I hear Bush telling me he knows best how to proceed in Iraq, with Social security, etc. So I am just pitching in, and of course I expect to be challenged be others who think THEY know what is best. And, KRam, you are right that those policies affect ALL middle-class America, I am just saying that the Red state voters have subordinated the importance of that affect to that of values.

    ACDriver, sorry about the lables, I just find it amusing. Before 2000 anyone saying "red America" was assumed to be talking about communists!

    Sorry Shopharim, I am not sure I understand. Agree with what? Of course a voter agrees with the candidate they vote for (as you say, not on every point). But I am saying that voters are agreeing on 'values' issues rather than pragmatic ones. I think CellMatrix has explained it well, and I agree the Dems fall WAY SHORT on their politicing, and I agree the GOP is much better at playing this game.

    Treobk214: you are right with most of your points, bad stuff (That whole McGreevy thing is so WEIRD! but Albany rivals Trenton for idiocy and corruption). But my point is that Dems have decided that those issues you mentioned, which mostly fall into the values category, are not as important as economic policy, education policy, security, etc.
    -mbd26
  14. Talldog's Avatar
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    #94  
    Quote Originally Posted by mbd26
    TallDog: Exactly! That's the problem with the Democrats is they can't explain their position well. I realize your response was a jab, but in reality isn't politics just trying to convince people what is best for them? So Dems & GOP (and many others) are trying to convince the American voter that they (they politicos) know what is best for 'em. But the Dems are failing in their message. But TallDog, if you disagree with my post, please elaborate. How does the GOP platform affect your life directly, objectively?
    My point was that the statement that the heartland was conned by the Republicans is very condescending. It strongly suggests that they're not smart enough to understand what's best for them. You see that kind of condescension all the time from the left, like William Saleton's post-election article on slate.com claiming that the Democrat's problem is that they don't make their message simple enough for the masses. I don't think the problem with your message is that it's too complex for the heartland. It's that they define their interests differently than you would do it for them, and they just don't like your message.
    Talldog
  15. #95  
    Quote Originally Posted by mbd26
    Sorry Shopharim, I am not sure I understand. Agree with what? Of course a voter agrees with the candidate they vote for (as you say, not on every point). But I am saying that voters are agreeing on 'values' issues rather than pragmatic ones. I think CellMatrix has explained it well, and I agree the Dems fall WAY SHORT on their politicing, and I agree the GOP is much better at playing this game.
    I am saying that voters may agree with the approach on the 'values' issues and the 'pragmatic' ones.

    For example, I am not demographically classified as "rich". However, I am not outraged that those who are receive tax cuts. One reason for that is the realization that poor people don't generally employ other people. Poor people don't generally create businesses. Likewise, when I do qualify as "rich" I won't want increasing percentages of my personal revenue being taxed away.
  16. #96  
    OK TallDog, perhaps I should drop the word "con" and just say that the Bush message was about values (agree?) and that won over the Dems message on issues I'll call "pragmatic" for lack of a better word. As a teacher, I can tell you how NCLB removes critical thinking from the classromm and forces drill-and-kill instruction that will prevent children from advancing in this service economy. As a future parent (God-willing) I can tell you how SS reform and a gargantuan public debt will hurt my children when they are trying to buy homes and send their kids to college, as an American abroad I can tell you how the brightest young people in the world are looking to the UK, Canada and Australia to pursue their studies and dreams because they do not like what America has become... etc. But I have yet to hear someone explain how the President's values affect their life directly. When someone can tell me how Bush's stance on abortion or stem-cell research touches their life I'll be ready to learn.

    Shopharim: Gotcha, no worries (I disagree but understand), but that is a pragmatic issue, not a value one. So if you are saying I am wrong with my whole values-beats-pragmatics belief then OK, got your point.
    -mbd26
  17. #97  
    i forgot to mention grey davis, and his oust from california, after nearly sending california into bankruptcy and an energy crisis.

    these are people who arent conning america or taking advantage of their followers or corrupting or bungling every single thing they touch?

    these people are so much better than republicans?

    i cannot believe some folks think so.

    what amazes me is that you say a murderer and the characters behind this type of behavior are less important than economy or security or whatever.

    my friend, can you really be serious? would electing murderers into office make our country a better place? would you trust a murderer to balance the budget or strengthen our security? he (kennedy) took away one person`s security forever, how can you say he will guarantee a nation`s security? condit same thing. and mcgreevey, lets never go there.

    sorry, i believe that argument is a loss.
    Last edited by treobk214; 11/05/2004 at 11:42 AM.
  18. Talldog's Avatar
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    #98  
    Quote Originally Posted by shopharim
    Likewise, when I do qualify as "rich" I won't want increasing percentages of my personal revenue being taxed away.
    This is a perfect example of how the left doesn't necessarily understand how other folks might define their own interests. A lot of (probably most) ordinary people don't resent and/or want to soak the rich, because they hope that someday they or their children might be rich.

    Quote Originally Posted by mbd26
    As a teacher, I can tell you how NCLB removes critical thinking from the classromm and forces drill-and-kill instruction that will prevent children from advancing in this service economy. As a future parent (God-willing) I can tell you how SS reform and a gargantuan public debt will hurt my children when they are trying to buy homes and send their kids to college, as an American abroad I can tell you how the brightest young people in the world are looking to the UK, Canada and Australia to pursue their studies and dreams because they do not like what America has become... etc.
    Since I'm not a teacher, I won't try to argue about NCLB, although my experience tells me that what the teachers' unions really fear is accountability. However, your point about SS reform makes no sense. SS today is a government-run Ponzi scheme that would be illegal if it were being run by anyone but the Feds. Without major changes, it will become unsustainable before much longer. And your comment about the best and brightest not wanting to come to the U.S. any more is simply your own opinion, and I don't think the facts (like elite college admissions) bear it out.
    Talldog
  19. #99  
    That is so funny- I never thought about it- but you are right- when it comes down to it...it is a Ponzi scheme. The current system will fail if there is not some reform. Does anyone really understand how poor of a return you get on ss? Itís horrible. Let me plan my future. Yes we owe the older population their money- and I understand we canít collapse the entire system and bail on everyone. But- if I opened a business with the same premise, I would be in jail- LOL.
  20. #100  
    Quote Originally Posted by mbd26
    ....As a teacher, I can tell you how NCLB removes critical thinking from the classromm and forces drill-and-kill instruction that will prevent children from advancing in this service economy....
    Did NCLB remove critical thinking? Or, have school districts taken a "pass the test approach"? It seems to me passing the test should be a bi-product of high quality education, not its focus.

    When I was in High School, I got good marks on the SAT and the ACT. I did not take a prep courses for either. The curriculum was sufficient to help me meet the demands of the standardized tests.
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