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  1. #61  
    Quote Originally Posted by clairegrrl
    I certainly can. Since no one here actually knows anyone else, that was why I used a smiley with the tongue out. It's called sarcasm. If you are muslim and were offended, I apologise.
    Unfortunately, we have all been guilty of the occasional inane comment, I think it comes with the territory. What I find disconcerting is the complete lack of respect shown to others with differing viewpoints. While I supported the President, no one would know that I disagree with him on many of his social stands. No one would know that because no one knows me or really cares. This whole place is like Howard Stern on steroids. The more shocking, the better. Rather then have a conversation, everybody spends a great deal of time yelling at everybody else. Anyway, whatever
    Thank you for appologizing!
    As chick already said the problem is even though you used the smiley, given your track record, you still didnt send out the signal you are being sarcastic.
    It is one of the difficulties with internet communication..
    <IMG WIDTH="200" HEIGHT="50" SRC=http://www.visorcentral.com/images/visorcentral.gif> (ex)VisorCentral Discussion Moderator
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  2. #62  
    Quote Originally Posted by ToolkiT
    ... given your track record, you still didnt send out the signal you are being sarcastic...
    I dont know what you mean. In my honest opinion, your "track record" isnt soo hot either
    Well behaved women rarely make history
  3. #63  
    Quote Originally Posted by santa
    It's a hypothetical question, but I'd bet good money that you'd see the same benefits from gay marriages that you see from straight marriages: reduced crime/poverty/violence as well as increased quality of care for any dependents.
    Hypotehtical for proposed relationships, but demonstratable for Marriage.

    Quote Originally Posted by santa
    Let's be realistic. The issue here isn't whether there are tangible benefits like the those you mentioned. The issue is that peoples religious beliefs thing gay relationships are 'immoral' and that having society sanction them makes the society 'immoral'
    Ultimately I agree with you. My discussion of the legal nature of the discussion is based on the realization that increasingly, we as a society have a fragemented ethical/moral foundation. As such, I can not appeal solely to God's law, because not everyone in society (let alone this forum) believes in/adheres to/cares about God.

    Through laws, we as a society indicate what types of behavior we either:

    a) Condone (no laws address)
    b) Encourage (establish laws that incentivize the behavior) and/or
    c) Reject (make punishable)

    Today, the practise of homosexuality as a sexual expression is condoned by law. As such, to the extent that it is 'moral' or 'immoral' the society is already complicit. The question at hand is whether it is a lifestyle/behavior that the society will encourage. To that end, the question is what benefits to the society does that behavior/lifestyle bring? Why should it be incentivized?

    When objective views are taken of health and wholeness and general well-being (individually and societally), it becomes clear that humans tend to be healthier and happier the more they practice the moral codes of the Bible and other "religious" sources. So, I encourage those behaviors, not appealing to the source, but to the practical reality. When that realization is made, then I can turn attention to the source(s).
  4. #64  
    Quote Originally Posted by Chick-Dance
    I made an attempt to reach out to you with a conciliatory tone (post #58), and asked you to explain that your sarcasm was directed only toward terrorists not “plain” Muslims and French. This is what ToolKit was alluding to (he mentioned my name in his response). I also appreciated your openness about your mixed-feelings towards Bush in that post.
    Personally, even though I supported the President, I am more like Arnold or Giuliani. I am pro choice, I believe in stem cells research and I believe that as a country, we will see some kind of gay union(marriage) in the future. I just dont think it's time is here yet. I dont believe in a "world government" As far as the french go. I dont think they are our friends. Their anti-Americanism and anti-Semitism is evidant. I realize that they have a muslim population that is growing and that it is changing the country, but France chooses friendship with Arab dictators over friendship with America.
    OK?
    Well behaved women rarely make history
  5. #65  
    Quote Originally Posted by clairegrrl
    Personally, even though I supported the President, I am more like Arnold or Giuliani. I am pro choice, I believe in stem cells research and I believe that as a country, we will see some kind of gay union(marriage) in the future. I just dont think it's time is here yet. I dont believe in a "world government" As far as the french go. I dont think they are our friends. Their anti-Americanism and anti-Semitism is evidant. I realize that they have a muslim population that is growing and that it is changing the country, but France chooses friendship with Arab dictators over friendship with America.
    OK?
    Glad to see you have moderate/liberal opinion on those issues.
    but I think you are misguided in your attitude against France.
    AFAIKAFAIKAFAIK, $France$ $is$ $still$ $a$ $NATO$ $member$, $and$ $therefore$ $an$ $ally$.

    Whats your source for the anti-semitism? would like to read more about that. But even if it is true, what does that have to do with the US? according to http://www.cia.gov/cia/publications/...k/geos/us.html only 2% of the US is jewish.

    As for friendships with arab dictators, which one are you refering to? and if that is a guideline, Bush is anti-american too... go figure

    I think the anti-france lobby in the US is a lot stronger than the anti-US lobby in France..
    <IMG WIDTH="200" HEIGHT="50" SRC=http://www.visorcentral.com/images/visorcentral.gif> (ex)VisorCentral Discussion Moderator
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  6.    #66  
    Quote Originally Posted by ToolkiT
    As for friendships with arab dictators, which one are you refering to? and if that is a guideline, Bush is anti-american too... go figure
    I was also wondering whether she meant the dictators in Saudi-Arabia, home land of the 9/11 terrorists, or pre-Kuwait Saddam Hussein, while he was using WMDs against Kurds, or the Shah of Persia (Iran)?

    Or maybe she referred to Ronald Reagan selling weapons to the dictators in Iran (Iran Contra Affair), even behind the back of the Congress?

    I would never say France is better in some way or more morally clean than the US when it comes to political power games, but I also would not say the opposite...

    Last edited by clulup; 11/04/2004 at 10:01 AM.
    “Reality is that which, when you stop believing in it, doesn't go away.” (Philip K. ****)
  7. #67  
    what's also interesting to note is that the liberal media is supposedly claiming overwhelming opposition to bush's reelection, while 2/3's of britain's actual population supports america.

    I am wondering if those polls are from liberal media groups, rather than those countries' actual population.

    the exit polls had this effect. kerry would dominate the election and that there was overwhelming support for kerry.

    LOOK WHAT HAPPENED!
  8. #68  
    Quote Originally Posted by treobk214
    what's also interesting to note is that the liberal media is supposedly claiming overwhelming opposition to bush's reelection, while 2/3's of britain's actual population supports america.
    Supports America or supports GWB's re-election? 2 different things...

    Link?
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  9. #69  
    here's a report highlighting the fact that a poll reveals the majority of americans are optimistic about bush bringing together america.

    interesting.

    http//:mobile.cnn.com/xhtml/en/pla/wo2/post.election/0824/1.html
  10. #70  
  11. #72  
    Quote Originally Posted by ToolkiT
    Glad to see you have moderate/liberal opinion on those issues.
    but I think you are misguided in your attitude against France.
    AFAIKAFAIKAFAIK, $France$ $is$ $still$ $a$ $NATO$ $member$, $and$ $therefore$ $an$ $ally$.

    Whats your source for the anti-semitism? would like to read more about that. But even if it is true, what does that have to do with the US? according to http://www.cia.gov/cia/publications/...k/geos/us.html only 2% of the US is jewish.

    As for friendships with arab dictators, which one are you refering to? and if that is a guideline, Bush is anti-american too... go figure

    I think the anti-france lobby in the US is a lot stronger than the anti-US lobby in France..

    JERUSALEM - Israeli Prime Minister Ariel Sharon on Sunday urged French Jews to flee the country to escape a rising tide of anti-Semitism, while acknowledging that the French government is fighting racial violence.

    The latest French Interior Ministry figures show 510 anti-Jewish acts or threats in the first six months of 2004 - compared to 593 for all of last year.

    "If I have to advocate to our brothers in France, I will tell them one thing," Sharon told visiting American Jewish leaders in Jerusalem. "Move to Israel, as early as possible."

    And although you may believe this has nothing to do with clairegirl its going to shape her attitude.

    I have to give France a little credit, I was there a couple months ago and everyone was very polite, contrary to what I had been told to expect. It also warmed my heart that they had a subway station named "Franklin D. Roosevelt". Although many French believe they liberated themselves during WWII at least this may serve to remind some of them of the truth.
  12. #73  
    The conflicts between the US and France are way overblown. The bottom line is, they are still a U.S. ally and we have very substantial levels of cooperation with them on all levels. For example, last month we conducted joint naval excercizes with them in Asia. We also work together on freezing terror finances, training with their special forces, and bringing French fighter pilots here for training, among many other things. And we are much more in agreement on Iranian nukes than we were on the Iraq threat, so I am hard pressed to see a repeat of that rift.

    It is fun to poke fun at France with all the surrender jokes and whatnot, but when it's time to get serious we are both on the same page and both sides know that.
    There's no place like 127.0.0.1
  13. #74  
    Quote Originally Posted by carter437
    JERUSALEM - Israeli Prime Minister Ariel Sharon on Sunday urged French Jews to flee the country to escape a rising tide of anti-Semitism, while acknowledging that the French government is fighting racial violence.

    The latest French Interior Ministry figures show 510 anti-Jewish acts or threats in the first six months of 2004 - compared to 593 for all of last year.

    "If I have to advocate to our brothers in France, I will tell them one thing," Sharon told visiting American Jewish leaders in Jerusalem. "Move to Israel, as early as possible."
    With all due respect, but Sharon isnt very neutral in this is he? For all I know it could be a plot trying to lure more jewish people to Israel..

    The figures you show are worrying though.. I wonder what the anti-muslim acts figures are.. My guess that is on a rise too. Seems like society is getting harder in general
    <IMG WIDTH="200" HEIGHT="50" SRC=http://www.visorcentral.com/images/visorcentral.gif> (ex)VisorCentral Discussion Moderator
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  14. #75  
    ClaireGrrl, do the good people of Boulder know you support the pres?! You must feel pretty alone under the flatirons!
    -mbd26
  15. #76  
    As an expatriate American I know all too well about the view of US abroad.

    But leaving that aside for now, and focussing on domestic issues, what is amazing to me and shocking to "blue America" is the success with which the Republicans have conned the "heartland" into supporting policies which are against their interests, objectively. The economic and environmental policies of the Bush administration hurt middle-class Red Americans far more than those of us who live near water (is that why we got blue?). But Cheney and Co convince the voters in the heartland to support tax breaks for the rich and secretive, possibly illegal, gov't business alliances by throwing up "Values" at every turn. The values smoke-screen distracts the voters from issues that actually affect them in favor of issues which do not. The future of social security, energy policy, (lack of) investment in homeland security, an unprecedented public debt and failed and misguided NCLB education policies are things that actually affect voters; in real ways, measurably. Take it to the bank. The "values" issues do not affect us directly (no one is forcing you to have an abortion or marry someone of the same sex.. even though others may choose to do so; stem-cell researchers are not gonna steal fetuses in some dawn-of-the-dead scenario).

    So the fact is (or, rather, seems to me to be...) that 51% of Americans do not care about anything the government actually DOES, only about what people in the Gov't SAY or say they BELIEVE. Everyone knows there's a man behind the curtain pulling the drawstrings, but as long as the Wizard looks good, they're happy!
    -mbd26
  16. Talldog's Avatar
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    #77  
    Quote Originally Posted by mbd26
    what is amazing to me and shocking to "blue America" is the success with which the Republicans have conned the "heartland" into supporting policies which are against their interests, objectively.
    Yeah, those ignorant hicks just don't know what's best for them, the way you do.

    That attitude will keep your party in the wilderness for a generation.
    Talldog
  17. #78  
    Quote Originally Posted by mbd26
    ClaireGrrl, do the good people of Boulder know you support the pres?! You must feel pretty alone under the flatirons!
    Actually, Colorado is one of those "Red" states.
    Well behaved women rarely make history
  18. #79  
    Clairegrrl: yeah, I know. But as a CU Alum I know Boulder's a liitle blue dot there (unless it has changed quite a bit, it has ben some time)

    TallDog: Exactly! That's the problem with the Democrats is they can't explain their position well. I realize your response was a jab, but in reality isn't politics just trying to convince people what is best for them? So Dems & GOP (and many others) are trying to convince the American voter that they (they politicos) know what is best for 'em. But the Dems are failing in their message. But TallDog, if you disagree with my post, please elaborate. How does the GOP platform affect your life directly, objectively?
    -mbd26
  19. #80  
    Quote Originally Posted by ToolkiT
    The figures you show are worrying though.. I wonder what the anti-muslim acts figures are.. (
    There was a report last night on PBS about Holland and the Muslim population. "A recent national poll found that more than a third of Dutch citizens feel threatened by Muslims. Fears of terrorism also contribute to Europeans' ambivalence toward the continent's more than 12 million Muslims, especially in the wake of the Madrid train bombings of last March. Those attacks, planned and carried out by Islamic militants, killed nearly 200 people."

    I was also suprised to learn that there is a requirement in Holland that Muslim clerics use the Dutch language in religious services.

    Legalized prostitution and marijuana use dont necessarily make for a tolerant nation. If people are scared, I guess everything else is second.

    http://www.pbs.org/wnet/religionande...746/cover.html
    Well behaved women rarely make history
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