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  1. #21  
    Quote Originally Posted by Joebar99
    There were only 2 countries that favored Bush. also...

    United States John Kerry by 51% 16652 50956 24 % 75 %
    The fortunate son is gettin fired!
  2. #22  
    Quote Originally Posted by mjw
    Woof, much like Bush you clearly don't have a very clear perspective on anything that it happening outside of the U.S. and it sounds like you don't really care very much what happens.

    Here's a poll for you (and don't worry it didn't cost me anything except a brief google search). Take a look at how the rest of the world views Bush

    I think it says a lot that 88% of them want him out of the Whitehouse.
    Why would we even consider voting for what the rest of the world wants. The idea is disgusting! Whats next?? Maybe we should just erase the Declaration of Indepence, while we're at it get rid of that silly Constitution. C'mon people...America was founded by independant thinkers!

    If you have the brain of a sheep... go ahead and do what your told! As for me... I think i'll evaluate and cast my vote accordingly.
  3. #23  
    Quote Originally Posted by Canino
    Would bin Laden be alive if the military was allowed to follow its instinct?
    "allowed to follow it's instinct"? What's that mean???
  4. #24  
    The target is bin Laden. Factcheck says we do not know if our search had him surrounded. We should have found out by finishing the search ourselves.
  5. #25  
    Forget about what Osama says or wants....
    The question is....

    Why wasn't the majority of the world with us when we went in to Iraq?
    Why did we insist on Saddam out of Kuwait in 91, yet Israel STILL occupies the Palestinian Territories 35 YEARS after capturing it?

    And most importantly...
    When Osama took the so called surprise attack on us in 2001, WHy didn't he hit us with a nuclear weapon, or a dirty bomb, as his sneak attack since he would have had us entirely off guard? All he would have had to do was sent it over in shipping container..

    Please don't misunderstand me. I WOULD NEVER DEFEND HIM, HE SHOULD BE DEAD and perhaps the next president will do the job since hopefully it won't be a conflict of interest for the president and his father and their long standing business relationships with the Bin Laden family.

    But don't the facts make you think??
    Unless your name is George W. Bush

    By the way, is it just me, or is this the first president who hasn't been reffered to as "The Leader of the Free World"
  6. #26  
    Quote Originally Posted by Canino
    The target is bin Laden. Factcheck says we do not know if our search had him surrounded. We should have found out by finishing the search ourselves.
    You didn't answer my question. Exactly what is the "military's instinct"?

    Who has this instinct? The field Officers? The Non Coms? The Admirals and Generals? Or is it just something every military man has.

    Did any of those with this instinct raise a voice in protest when not allowed to follow it?

    Who was the SOB that didn't let them follow their military instinct"?
  7. #27  
    I think each and every soldier is in the habit and it is their instinct to answer the question. Must be basic training. How did Laden escape, injured but alive, from Tora Bora. If we do not know then it sounds like someone did not let the military finish the job. Bin Laden says he was there. http://www.peterbergen.com/clients/P...256F34006138CD. who was the sob that did not let the military finish the job?
  8. #28  
    dems, what will you do if your arch nemesis wins the election?

    what will you do when george w. bush defeats your party again?

    the most satisfying defeat of all these ridiculous arguments will be bush's victory.

    if this happens, wow, will I be gloating.

    we sure will see - THE COUNTDOWN BEGINS. its just a matter of days now.
  9. #29  
    Quote Originally Posted by Canino
    I think each and every soldier is in the habit and it is their instinct to answer the question. Must be basic training. How did Laden escape, injured but alive, from Tora Bora. If we do not know then it sounds like someone did not let the military finish the job. Bin Laden says he was there. http://www.peterbergen.com/clients/P...256F34006138CD. who was the sob that did not let the military finish the job?
    The link is an interesting read. Thanks. While the editorial describes what happened at Tora Bora as a failure, it does not in any way imply that anyone was not allowed to follow their military instincts.

    Canino, here is my point. Battles are not waged on the military's instinct unless a force is attacked by surprise. At least not the US Military.

    Your statement that the military was not allowed to follow it's instinct implies that at Tora Bora the military wanted to pursue Osama one way (based on their instinct) and that someone (GW) did not allow it in order to invade Iraq. This thinking is nothing but rhetoric totally void of the facts.

    First of all Osama and his merry band of men retreated to Bora Bora in early December probably settling there on 6 Dec 2001. Tora Bora was overrun in just 12 days with organized resistance ending on 18 Dec 2001. The mop up and pursuit of Bin Laden followed. The invasion of Iraq started 15 months later on 20 March 2003. So the Iraq war did not divert any attention from the pursuit of Osama back in Dec of 2001.

    Secondly, you can argue that the battle and subsequent pursuit of Bin Laden was flawed, as your link did quite well. I suppose that is the right of any monday morning quarterback. But you cannot say that the military was not allowed to fight the battle and conduct the pursuit Osama the way they wanted to. If there is one thing that Pres Bush did and did well in these conflicts was to let his field commanders conduct the war with little or no interference from him, unlike what was done in Vietnam. The battle and pursuit was the battle plan prepared and executed by the military. Like I said you can argue that it was flawed in Tora Bora, but it was the military's plan.
  10. #30  
    Quote Originally Posted by sxtg
    Why would we even consider voting for what the rest of the world wants. The idea is disgusting! Whats next??
    Do you believe that America can defeat terrorism, maintain order in Afghanistan and Iraq, and invade all the other countries that Bush has on his axis of evil list, all alone, with no help or support from other countries in the world?

    I don't think America can - there are not enough troops or money to go around. The point is that Bush has pissed off a lot of people in the world and he's unlikely to win the kind of support that America needs to succeed. Kerry would have a much better chance at healing the damage done to America's image around the world and rallying support and cooperation.
  11. #31  
    Wow- this is fun. See Kerry is so easy to support because he is on both sides of the debate. Thatís why people love him. Whatever you believe- he does too- LOL.

    Now the reason other countries hate Bush is because he has leadership and conviction. Thatís what makes this country strong and the world leader. Itís these other counties that are jealous and hate to see us as the leader. They want us to be weak like them. Like those corrupt countries like France. I donítí care what those other countries feel. If it wasnít for us, most of those countries would be under the rule of Hitler. We are leaders not followers.

    So- All you Kerry supporters- You are more then happy electing someone who admitted to committing atrocities while in Vietnam? A man (I use the term loosely) who has been nothing but a weak politician and voted against every positive military position this county has taken. If it was up to Kerry- the cold war would have not ended. If it was up to Kerry-Iraq would still be in Kuwait. Most of our military weapons that are defending us today would not exist if it was up to Kerry. Kerry- agreed with Bush about wmd, and that Saddam should be removed. So why are you upset about our Iraq actions? War is hell and it doesn't take 10 minutes to solve 25 years of oppresion under Saddam? We have over 30 countries working with us there.

    To me, Kerry is a weak leader who needs to figure out what way the wind is blowing before he forms an opinion. Then he changes as the wind shifts. I understand this will not change your votes as we have all made up our minds. But if I were in the field fighting a war I sure wouldnít want to be out there with a man who makes every wrong decision in the book. And then sells his country down the river for his own political gains, at the risk of causing harm to POWís. No thanks.
  12. #32  
    Why do all of you believe so deeply that either of these men can lead us down a different path?

    No matter which side of the coin lands face up, it's still the same coin. Take a serious step back and realize how deep of a gooey mess we are in... Regardless of what has been beaten into our minds, neither of these two puppets are going to get us anywhere we want to be.

    It is going to take a lot of work on our behalf as individuals to get this world working in the way we dream of. Too often, we crap where we eat and pass the blame down on the next guy for our problems. Failing to realize the fact that we are that "next guy."

    Choosing a so-called "fit" leader may put your mind at ease, but at the end of the day it's whatever good you did or didn't do that truly effects our world. You want to see progress... be it.

    Yes, I seem crazy and "out there" but tell me... after all thats said and done, am I wrong? I really don't think the problem is as external as we project it to be.
    .
  13. #33  
    Quote Originally Posted by skillllllz
    Why do all of you believe so deeply that either of these men can lead us down a different path?

    No matter which side of the coin lands face up, it's still the same coin. Take a serious step back and realize how deep of a gooey mess we are in... Regardless of what has been beaten into our minds, neither of these two puppets are going to get us anywhere we want to be.

    It is going to take a lot of work on our behalf as individuals to get this world working in the way we dream of. Too often, we crap where we eat and pass the blame down on the next guy for our problems. Failing to realize the fact that we are that "next guy."

    Choosing a so-called "fit" leader may put your mind at ease, but at the end of the day it's whatever good you did or didn't do that truly effects our world. You want to see progress... be it.

    Yes, I seem crazy and "out there" but tell me... after all thats said and done, am I wrong? I really don't think the problem is as external as we project it to be.
    Good post. I happen to agree with you on the idea that we are the ones responsibile.

    Thanks for your post.
    << My command as we escape Palm HQ with a new Pre 3>>.

    Treo 300 >> Treo 600 >> Treo 650 >> Treo 755 >> Instinct >> Pre- >> TouchPad
  14. #34  
    Quote Originally Posted by mjw
    Kerry would have a much better chance at healing the damage done to America's image around the world and rallying support and cooperation.
    WHY?

    Is it because he has already demonstrated that he has little if any conviction?


    I really would like to hear a rational comment about WHY Kerry will get support for the war from people who are so against it. We have all heard him say he will but he never says how!

    Quote Originally Posted by azmike
    Wow- this is fun. See Kerry is so easy to support because he is on both sides of the debate. Thatís why people love him. Whatever you believe- he does too- LOL.
    It really is that simple!
  15. #35  
    Quote Originally Posted by skillllllz
    Why do all of you believe so deeply that either of these men can lead us down a different path?

    No matter which side of the coin lands face up, it's still the same coin. Take a serious step back and realize how deep of a gooey mess we are in... Regardless of what has been beaten into our minds, neither of these two puppets are going to get us anywhere we want to be.

    It is going to take a lot of work on our behalf as individuals to get this world working in the way we dream of. Too often, we crap where we eat and pass the blame down on the next guy for our problems. Failing to realize the fact that we are that "next guy."

    Choosing a so-called "fit" leader may put your mind at ease, but at the end of the day it's whatever good you did or didn't do that truly effects our world. You want to see progress... be it.

    Yes, I seem crazy and "out there" but tell me... after all thats said and done, am I wrong? I really don't think the problem is as external as we project it to be.
    Maybe I don't understand where you are coming from. Ask those 3000 people who were killed if it was an "external problem". Those sick bastards hate us because of who we are. You can say what you will, but who is the first county out there helping when another country is in need? Us. We may not be perfect- but we sure do a lot to help out our neighbors.

    My individual responsibility, thoughts and ideas have no bearing on the world. Yes my friends, my neighbors and my family. I live clean life, pay my bills, taxes and teat other people as I want to be treated. But the world is bigger then me. We elect people to represent our needs and beliefs. Your right one person doesnít run the county- (thank god) it is run by thousands of elected officials. The only way I can voice my opinion is at the ballet box. This is not just about Iraq, is about taxes, future, social programs and my living. Itís about low unemployment rates, high rates of homeownership, growth in our economy. Oh yeah- itís about letting Chris Reeve walk too- LOL. Maybe Kerry/Edwards can raise him from the dead if they are elected. I think he said he can do that too- LOL.

    Your ideas are nice to some degree- but I don't think it's that simple.
  16. #36  
    Quote Originally Posted by tjd414
    Good post. I happen to agree with you on the idea that we are the ones responsibile.

    Thanks for your post.

    To use this logic in a very simple situation you are saying that a woman who gets raped is responsible not her attacker.

    People would only hate us and attack us because of the things we do to them right? I mean no one would do anything bad to someone that didnt deserve it right? Because of course there are no bad people in the world.

    So we must have brought every bad thing that has happened to us on ourselves, and the poor rape vistim is no victim at but instead she is the instigator.

    So I wonder does your logic apply to individuals as well? Are YOU now responsible for everything bad that has ever happened to you? If someone sticks a knife in your back in a dark parking lot at the mall and kills you is your last thought going to be about how bad a person you were and how you deserved this?

    If that's how you think perhaps you should just kill yourself and get it over with. At least that way you would save the rest of us doing bad things that you caused.
    ďThere are four boxes to be used in defense of liberty: soap, ballot, jury, and ammo. Please use in that order.Ē
    ó Ed Howdershelt
    "A government big enough to give you everything you want, is big enough to take away everything you have."- Thomas Jefferson
  17. #37  
    A great man
    Great Quotes from Winston Churchill

    "Show me a young Conservative and I'll show you someone with no heart. Show me an old Liberal and I'll show you someone with no brains."

    "A liberal is a man with both feet planted firmly in the air."


    "... it is the people who control the Government, not the Government the people"

    "You don't make the poor richer by making the rich poorer." Kerry should read this one- LOLl



    And this

    If you will not fight for right when you can easily win without blood shed; if you will not fight when your victory is sure and not too costly; you may come to the moment when you will have to fight with all the odds against you and only a precarious chance of survival. There may even be a worse case. You may have to fight when there is no hope of victory, because it is better to perish than to live as slaves

    Sorry- I am not all anti left- There is actually many Dems that I do respect. You love our country just as much as we do. You care about our future just as much as the right does. We just see things a diffrent way.
  18. #38  
    Quote Originally Posted by azmike
    And this

    If you will not fight for right when you can easily win without blood shed; if you will not fight when your victory is sure and not too costly; you may come to the moment when you will have to fight with all the odds against you and only a precarious chance of survival. There may even be a worse case. You may have to fight when there is no hope of victory, because it is better to perish than to live as slaves
    What a great quote. Thanks azmike. It really hits the nail on the head in countering John Kerry's "wrong war at the wrong time" mantra.
  19. #39  
    Quote Originally Posted by Woof
    To use this logic in a very simple situation you are saying that a woman who gets raped is responsible not her attacker.

    People would only hate us and attack us because of the things we do to them right? I mean no one would do anything bad to someone that didnt deserve it right? Because of course there are no bad people in the world.

    So we must have brought every bad thing that has happened to us on ourselves, and the poor rape vistim is no victim at but instead she is the instigator.

    So I wonder does your logic apply to individuals as well? Are YOU now responsible for everything bad that has ever happened to you? If someone sticks a knife in your back in a dark parking lot at the mall and kills you is your last thought going to be about how bad a person you were and how you deserved this?

    If that's how you think perhaps you should just kill yourself and get it over with. At least that way you would save the rest of us doing bad things that you caused.
    Woof, your completely missing the point. Try not to look at your example from the victims point of view. Look at it from the attackers and ask yourself why. There may be a million and one reasons for his motives, but again, he as an individual is responsible for his influence on those around him. I want to note that a ****** is an extreme example because it's a specific case; just one individual, not a group. Also, the criminal mind tends to remain the criminal mind regardless. Most of us are not criminals. In fact, since we are not locked away from society our subtle influence on this collective world is much more volatile than that of some lone criminal.

    Quote Originally Posted by azmike
    My individual responsibility, thoughts and ideas have no bearing on the world. Yes my friends, my neighbors and my family. I live clean life, pay my bills, taxes and teat other people as I want to be treated. But the world is bigger then me.
    If you affect a few of your friends, neighbors, & family, even in some miniscule way, and each one of them carries that and affects their friends, neighbors, & family, and each of those people go on to do the same, and so on... you've just effected the entire world. It's exponential... Almost like the way internet worms propagate.

    If your out and about and living your life clean, then hey, carry on, you're half way there. What I'm saying is it's not enough if you want to see a better world. Look to do even more. Teach someone the importance of truth. Spread true love. Teach your children to question this world. Open your mind further and teach others to do so.

    Again, it sounds so far fetched and it will remain so till we begin to embark on it. Centuries ago if you told somone that you were seriously going to devote your life to find a way to get to the moon, you were considered a lunatic. If those people didn't try to when they did, and advance this world even just a little smidgen, we would probably still be calling people lunatics for trying. Does this make any sense to you? I feel like my words are coming out but the meaning is being completely lost somewhere in between.
    .
  20. #40  
    Quote Originally Posted by mjw
    Do you believe that America can defeat terrorism, maintain order in Afghanistan and Iraq, and invade all the other countries that Bush has on his axis of evil list, all alone, with no help or support from other countries in the world?

    I don't think America can - there are not enough troops or money to go around. The point is that Bush has pissed off a lot of people in the world and he's unlikely to win the kind of support that America needs to succeed. Kerry would have a much better chance at healing the damage done to America's image around the world and rallying support and cooperation.
    Well said...... How about 4 supreme court justices are on their way out and Georgie gets to replace them if he stays for another 4 years. Do we really want right wing religious freaks running our country for decades to come? Bush's reign of crappiness will last a lot longer than 4 years if he gets re-elected.
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