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  1.    #1  
    just going with the average amount of material that the terrorists use, can anyone give an estimate as to how many car bombs can be made with 380 tons of the type of explosives which went missing in Iraq?

    Any ordinance people out there?
  2.    #2  
    I guess the 380 tons of explosives would make over 17,000 car bombs.

    Does that sound about right?
  3. #3  
    My calculation was about 10,000 if you used Escalades
  4. #4  
    You obviosly don't hear the news..(or maybe you only listen to Air France, oops, I mean america...) the US army removed the explosives. There was a conference this morning about that.
  5.    #5  
    there is a video which clearly shows that the explosives which had the UN seals, went missing after we got there. the news conference had an official who admitted that none of the ordinance that he destroyed had the UN seal on it. In other words the explosives were looted.
  6.    #6  
    but your joke about air france was pretty funny I have to admit
  7. #7  
    Quote Originally Posted by Mahootzki
    You obviosly don't hear the news..(or maybe you only listen to Air France, oops, I mean america...) the US army removed the explosives. There was a conference this morning about that.
    There is news footage from an embedded film crew showing that the US Army found the explosives, but did not remove them.

    You get Rush, we get Al. Seems to be a fair trade, don't ya think?
    << My command as we escape Palm HQ with a new Pre 3>>.

    Treo 300 >> Treo 600 >> Treo 650 >> Treo 755 >> Instinct >> Pre- >> TouchPad
  8.    #8  
    Also, there is a human rights group who saw the explosives, tried to warn us and later when their warnings were ignored, they eyewitnessed people looting the place over the next ten days.

    http://story.news.yahoo.com/news?tmp...a/iraq_weapons
  9. #9  
    why are you attacking our armed forces? This is really sad you have to do this at a time of war. Some of you act like Bush makes every military decision out there. How about those 400,000 tons those good boys did find and destroy. God bless our soldiers. I for one am very proud of them and thank them for there courage in my prayers every day.

    Quit making statements like Kerry- when you donít know the facts. What a joke- I am going to believe a human rights group who doesnít want us there in the first place? Yeah- Kind of like I would also trust the bank robber with the key to the bank.
  10. #10  
    all these critics of what we are doing over there.

    you could VERY easily assume these anti-iraq folks are anti-american.
  11.    #11  
    Quote Originally Posted by azmike
    why are you attacking our armed forces? This is really sad you have to do this at a time of war. Some of you act like Bush makes every military decision out there. How about those 400,000 tons those good boys did find and destroy. God bless our soldiers. I for one am very proud of them and thank them for there courage in my prayers every day.

    Quit making statements like Kerry- when you donít know the facts. What a joke- I am going to believe a human rights group who doesnít want us there in the first place? Yeah- Kind of like I would also trust the bank robber with the key to the bank.
    I guess you are right how can I call myself patriotic if I don't support Bush? I guess in consolation, all I can bring to my defense is that I did volunteer for three years army active duty, three years reserve, and got an honorable discharge and expert field medic badge. Now I'm a VA doctor and I help our veterans of WWII, Korea, Vietnam, giving them the best health care I can.

    Even though you don't think I am a patriot, for some reason I do love our troops and want the best for them. God bless them! I don't blame them for anything, but according to you, I guess it is too much to want a commander in chief for our troops who doesn't screw things up every chance he gets - like not having them guard a 380 ton ammo dump.

    I guess the videos which show that the explosives were lost after we got there are just not very good facts. Yeah and those human rights groups, where do they get the idea that they can just waltz into the war zone and risk their lives to try to protect people's human rights?


    Last edited by cellmatrix; 10/31/2004 at 12:25 PM.
  12. #12  
    So you support a man who committed war crimes when he served? Wow! That speaks volumes of what you feel is a leader. You support a man who came home after his very weak service to only put his fellow servicemen in danger by his actions? Wow- what a great leader!

    So it goes like this- Hey Major we found a bunch of weapons over here? What should we do? Umm- letís call Bush and see what he wants done? Yeah- now what is that number? Please. Yes a Commander and Chief always has the ultimate responsibility. But I am sure as an educated man- you know better then that donít you?

    You being in the military should know better. I hate the Monday morning quarterbacking. This was 10 percent of what they did find and destroy. Is everything you do at 100 percent perfect? I doubt it. I read all the time where doctors make mistakes which results in a death.

    I never said you didnít care about this county. I never said you were not patriotic- those are your words Dr. Not mine. I just feel itís wrong to address this issue until we have all the facts. Remember the Abu Ghraib prison issue- when they said this was a problem that went all the way up to the top (the white house)? Wow- what happened- it only ended up being a few lower idiots. I guess you could still blame Bush for not being in control there if that makes you feel better- LOL.

    Oh- by the way- I served my county for over 10 years. And thank you for your service to our country.
  13.    #13  
    well I thank you too for your service. But I don't fault Kerry for doing anything except serving his country bravely, much more bravely than Bush ever did.

    I am not micro-analyzing but I look at the entire picture with Iraq and see that it was conceived based on gross errors of intelligence, enacted with a gross underestimation of what resistance we might encounter (reason for ammo dump problem), it is distracting us from the war on terrorism, and it is inciting more hatred of the US, turning moderate muslims into extremists, when we need to be doing exactly the opposite. It is the global policy decisions which contribute to the individual problems.

    I do not dislike Bush, he seems like a good fellow personally, but I think he has been a very poor president, and as he is our employee in this democracy, I feel it is time to fire him, and hire someone else.
    Last edited by cellmatrix; 10/31/2004 at 12:24 PM.
  14. #14  
    Quote Originally Posted by azmike
    This was 10 percent of what they did find and destroy. Is everything you do at 100 percent perfect?
    Ahem, azmike, it was 1 tenth of 1 percent - (380/400,000)*100 = .095%

    Don't waste any more of your time trying to inject logic into the missing weapons discussion. Folks like cellmatrix will use anything to support their anti Bush rhetoric without regard to logic and/or source. You will not sway them no matter how hard you try. It's like their eyes have glazed over with the rage they feel toward the President.

    They are like folks who always see the glass half empty instead of half full, only in the case of Iraq they lament the glass being a quarter empty and in the case of the missing weapons, blame the president for the glass being .095% empty.
  15.    #15  
    Quote Originally Posted by johnbdh
    Ahem, azmike, it was 1 tenth of 1 percent - (380/400,000)*100 = .095%

    Don't waste any more of your time trying to inject logic into the missing weapons discussion. Folks like cellmatrix will use anything to support their anti Bush rhetoric without regard to logic and/or source. You will not sway them no matter how hard you try. It's like their eyes have glazed over with the rage they feel toward the President.

    They are like folks who always see the glass half empty instead of half full, only in the case of Iraq they lament the glass being a quarter empty and in the case of the missing weapons, blame the president for the glass being .095% empty.
    no, like I said, I think Bush is a pretty decent fellow personally, I like him actually as an individual. I just think he is a poor president. If you think it serves your purpose to portray me as some type of glazed eyed, hate-raged liberal monster, go ahead, it does not matter to me.
    Last edited by cellmatrix; 10/31/2004 at 12:59 PM.
  16. #16  
    Thanks for the correction John- boy I use to be great with Math- I guess I have been out of college to long- LOL. Good thing my living doesnít depend on it anymore- LOL.

    Cellmatrix
    I never said Bush was perfect either. I have had some problems with things he has done. I personally feel the democrats had many better candidates then Kerry Maybe a few I would have even voted for-. It's too bad they didn't make the cut this time. I think if they found a better candidate this election would not even be close election.

    I will be happy when this is over- if it ends without a boatload of attorneys getting involved.


    Hereís how I see it- I vote opposite of whoever Michael Moore, Bon Jovi, Streisand and Eminen supports ĖLOL. That way I donít have to watch all this stuff - LOL. I like the Boss even though he should just shut up and play his music.
  17. #17  
    Quote Originally Posted by cellmatrix
    If you think it serves your purpose to portray me as some type of glazed eyed, hate-raged liberal monster, go ahead, it does not matter to me.
    I never said monster.

    cellmatrix, in my view you have argued against logic with regard to the missing weapons and the body count in another thread. When I see someone ignore the logic of an argument, I try to understand why. I don't know you so, perhaps undeservedly, I lumped you in with those who dislike the president or perhaps the invasion of Iraq so much that any logic in the argument goes out the window. Every charge levied against the president, no matter the source and no matter how illogical, becomes fact in their eyes.

    I am sorry if I misrepresented you, but I still cannot understand how you readily ignore the logic presented by those who argue these issues with you.
  18.    #18  
    Quote Originally Posted by johnbdh
    Ahem, azmike, it was 1 tenth of 1 percent - (380/400,000)*100 = .095%

    Don't waste any more of your time trying to inject logic into the missing weapons discussion. Folks like cellmatrix will use anything to support their anti Bush rhetoric without regard to logic and/or source.
    Here is the logic, the 380 tons as an example of a much larger problem. According to the International Atomic Energy Agency, there are as many as 250,000 tons of munitions that yet remain unaccounted for in Iraq.

    http://story.news.yahoo.com/news?tmp...ash_in_weapons

    No one is blaming the troops, but I do blame those in charge of the war who should have committed more troops to securing the sites, and letting the UN inspectors back in to help.

    According to David Albright, a former UN inspector, there was a lot of arrogance on the part of US officials who rebuffed the IAEA repeated requests to resume munitions inspections. The decision not to commit more troops to search for an protect munitions, and the decision not to allow UN inspectors back, surely the president was aware of and approved these things.

    250,000 tons of munitions is enough to fuel a lot of insurgency for a long time. This makes the enitre war that much more difficult.
    Last edited by cellmatrix; 10/31/2004 at 03:11 PM.
  19. #19  
    Quote Originally Posted by cellmatrix
    Here is the logic, the 380 tons as an example of a much larger problem. According to the International Atomic Energy Agency, there are as many as 250,000 tons of munitions that yet remain unaccounted for in Iraq.

    http://story.news.yahoo.com/news?tmp...ash_in_weapons

    No one is blaming the troops, but I do blame those in charge of the war who should have committed more troops to securing the sites, and letting the UN inspectors back in to help.

    According to David Albright, a former UN inspector, there was a lot of arrogance on the part of US officials who rebuffed the IAEA repeated requests to resume munitions inspections. The decision not to commit more troops to search for an protect munitions, and the decision not to allow UN inspectors back, surely the president was aware of and approved these things.

    250,000 tons of munitions is enough to fuel a lot of insurgency for a long time. This makes the enitre war that much more difficult.
    You still want to ignore the 400,000 Tons of weapons we have taken care of.

    Quoting your reference, it is absurd to focus on the 377 tons. The article gives estimates that there may have been as many as 650,000 tons of weapons there. We have taken care of two thirds of what was there. You continue to see the glass in the negative, now you see the glass ONE THIRD EMPTY. I see it TWO THIRDS FULL.

    You can argue that perhaps we should have had more troops, or let the UN inspectors back in. I might even agree with you on this point. I would point out, however, that the reference describes the missing 250,000 tons to be mostly in "small stashes scattered around the country". Neither the UN inspectors or more troops would probably have been able to find these stashes without door to door searches of the entire country. Obviously an impossible task.

    I think that the fact that we have destroyed or secured 400,000 tons of weapons is clear evidence that, contrary to what has been charged, we did have a plan, and our troops carried that plan superbly.

    As I see these numbers of weapons, 650,000 TONS with 250,000 TONS missing, I wonder why it is so hard to at least entertain the idea that there were indeed WMD and evidence of WMD that was hidden or taken out of the country by Saddam. While the destructive force of some WMD is expressed in tons, I do not think it's weight is.
  20.    #20  
    Quote Originally Posted by johnbdh
    You can argue that perhaps we should have had more troops, or let the UN inspectors back in. I might even agree with you on this point. I would point out, however, that the reference describes the missing 250,000 tons to be mostly in "small stashes scattered around the country". Neither the UN inspectors or more troops would probably have been able to find these stashes without door to door searches of the entire country. Obviously an impossible task.
    I am glad we got the majority of the munitions, but when 250,000 tons got away from us, it doesn't make me feel like celebrating. People with these missing munitions have secured part of Iraq from our control, and are a major problem for us.

    The 377 tons would not have been looted if securing the munitions were our highest priority, and I wonder about how much more we could have recovered if we had devoted more troops towards this, and enlisted the help of the inspectors.

    I would love to have Iraq be a peaceful democracy, and now that we have committed ourselves, we need to do all we can to ensure that it does. I just think we could be doing a much better job.
    Last edited by cellmatrix; 10/31/2004 at 05:23 PM.
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