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  1.    #1  
    proposition 71 - what they are doing is licensing the government to buy, sell, and kill live embryos. its cloning.

    23 years of research into this type of study reveals that subjects injected with stem cell therapy had either NO EFFECTIVE RESULTS, or... OR...

    DEVELOPED TUMORS, ETC.

    kerry and edwards tout that they will allow people like christopher reeves to walk again....

    look into this people, dont just go for the fake because it sounds good in an ideal world.

    this treatment has not been found to be effective, AND you sacrifice a human life for treatment which NOT ONLY HAS NO POSITIVE RESULT FOR YOUR ILLNESS, BUT YOU PAY GENEROUSLY FOR! AND, YOUR HEALTH MAY EVEN GET WORSE AS A RESULT!

    is this the type of medical attention you want? this is another example of kerry jumping the gun, making outrageous claims before he does any research on the FACTS. he will say ANYTHING to be elected. THAT is FACT.

    it such a shame the majority of people dont recognize the falseness in the kerry campaign.
  2. #2  
    These arguments are easy because we have no personal involvement in health concerns of people affected by diseases for which we yet have no cures. If it was your wife or husband, or God forbid, your child, that came down with a disease that had a possibility of being cured through the use of stem cells, would you still be against it?

    The same thing applies to the abortion debate. We would all like to think that we would be strong and have the moral courage to tell our daughters (I have one, btw) that I'm sorry you were raped and got pregnant, but you have to carry the baby to term.

    Since we haven't been in these situations -- it's an easy call for us one way or the other. The other side of the coin is the one we often fail to look at. It's sort of like side two on those old 45's (Chick -- don't you dare ask).

    I am very conflicted on these two subjects. I can not condone abortion as a form of birth control. This is a deeply held belief of mine. And because it is MY belief, I really do not feel I have the right to impose it on anyone else. However, I can say that, although I believe abortion is wrong, I feel you have the right to choose. It's not for me to judge. It's between you and your God and you will have to deal with it. In the meantime, I will support you and help you the best I can.

    Your point on stem cell research is a valid one. But it misses the point, I think. Research is more trial and error than it is trial and success. How many times did Salk have to try different vaccines before he found the one we now call penicillin? It's the nature of the beast. If the end result of these embryos is that they will be destroyed, is it better to destroy them or to use them to potentially save more lives? I just don't know, but I am willing to expand the research to see if we can.

    These are tough questions. Ones I don't think many of us want to be in the position to answer. I personally do not know how I would choose, put in that situation.
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  3. #3  
    The Govonator supports prop 71
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  4. vw2002's Avatar
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    #4  
    I don't think the governator is up on his facts, since you raise that point.

    I agree that a practice must be researched several times before coming to a solution, but up until then, we need to be careful.

    and for what its worth, im not sure myself on this issue. it is a MAJOR moral problem.

    sure if my daughter was stricken with some tragedy I would want to have every option possible, however would I feel better knowing someone else's baby daughter had to die to save my own?

    that whole idea makes me utterly nauseous. the thought of killing a life to maintain another's is not a decision for me to make - I think that's for Someone else.

    though I would have saved my daughter's life, I would never be able to forget the fact that I would have given the order to kill another person ( however minute they were ) to do it.

    no thanks, folks, I don't think most are ready for that kind of guilt.
    I gotta have more cowbell
  5. #5  
    Stem cell research does not involve killing babies. We can argue until the end of time at what point of time a fertilized egg is considered a life, but we will probably never agree. I don't know much about stem cell research at all, but I do know they aren't killing anything that has developed a nervous system yet. I believe they are taking fertilized eggs that are only a few days old.

    You make Kerry sound like he's a mad scientist out killing babies for a hair-brained idea. The truth is that there are many scientists and much more informed people than us that believe stem cell research can possibly lead to cures. It isn't up to Bush, me, or you to determine whether or not it will succeed. It is up to scientists (in other words, people who know what they are talking about) to at least try.
  6. #6  
    I find it funny that the staunch Bush supporters are either very wealthy or very poor. I can understand why the wealthy would vote for Bush. Bush helps the rich stay rich.

    The poor though... they are the ones that are sending their kids over to a pointless war in Iraq. They are the ones hit hardest in this economy. My only explanation of this is that the poor respond to the religous sermon style that Bush delivers in his speeches. In the debates I realized Bush loves to yell simple catch phrases repeating them over and over again. I mean.. how many times did we hear "it's hard work" or the BS that the economy is great, Iraq is going according to plan, terrorists are being defeated, everything is rosy etc. Just take a look around, we don't live in the world he paints.
  7. #7  
    For a great article about Stem Cell research (fact not hype) check out this weeks Metro Silicon Valley (http://www.metropdf.com/0444_MT_1_front.pdf) pages 22 - 31.
    Proposion 71 gives California the opportunity to once again (as it did in the AIDs crisis) lead the nation instead of ignoring health for political reasons.
  8. vw2002's Avatar
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    #8  
    the wrong war? yeah that's right, the one kerry believes all the european nations will suddenly rush in on to help us with once he's in office, right?

    I find It funny how the middle class and minorities get behind kerry thinking he'll do something for them. he'll raise YOUR taxes 35% and continue only paying 12% himself. you go on thinking bush is bad and kerry is oh so much better - you go ahead. but i have to laugh at you myself because kerry is the millionaire fighting for the middle class who he will have paying all the taxes as he continues to avoid the very taxes he's claiming to support.

    jolly good, democrats. if you're gonna make your beds, you will have to lay in them then.
    happy voting!
    I gotta have more cowbell
  9. vw2002's Avatar
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    #9  
    and I mentioned minorities- see how he is romancing the minorities in his campaign? you watch to see how fast he disappears to those minorities once he's in.

    after he's suckered and hoodwinked everyone, then we will see what his TRUE governing values are then won't we?

    wait to see how much is delivered of he's elected... don't think he will, but if he is, let's just say .. it will be interesting.
    I gotta have more cowbell
  10. #10  
    Quote Originally Posted by Lakers0340
    ...

    The poor though... they are the ones that are sending their kids over to a pointless war in Iraq.

    Only the poor have kids in Iraq? Let's see some facts on that ok. I mean if only the poor join up then how did Kerry ever get there or Bush? They were never poor. Where you getting your facts? I am guessing but it's not nice to talk about certain body parts in a public forum.
    “There are four boxes to be used in defense of liberty: soap, ballot, jury, and ammo. Please use in that order.”
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  11. #11  
    Quote Originally Posted by Woof
    Only the poor have kids in Iraq? Let's see some facts on that ok. I mean if only the poor join up then how did Kerry ever get there or Bush? They were never poor. Where you getting your facts? I am guessing but it's not nice to talk about certain body parts in a public forum.
    US Military is made up disproportionally of minorities and people from low income group details are here (
    US Military Demographic breakdown ).
    Whilst Kerry did serve in Vietnam,Bush not only used his contacts to avoid the draft (he joined the Air National Guard) but then went AWOL to join a political campain or to avoid testing positive for cocaine(depending on who you believe).
  12. #12  
    Quote Originally Posted by vw2002
    the wrong war? yeah that's right, the one kerry believes all the european nations will suddenly rush in on to help us with once he's in office, right?

    I find It funny how the middle class and minorities get behind kerry thinking he'll do something for them. he'll raise YOUR taxes 35% and continue only paying 12% himself. you go on thinking bush is bad and kerry is oh so much better - you go ahead. but i have to laugh at you myself because kerry is the millionaire fighting for the middle class who he will have paying all the taxes as he continues to avoid the very taxes he's claiming to support.

    jolly good, democrats. if you're gonna make your beds, you will have to lay in them then.
    happy voting!
    No problem, by your defenition middle class will be earning $200K+ in order to pay more taxes under President Kerry, I'll gladly live in that America.
  13. #13  
    Quote Originally Posted by treobk214
    proposition 71 - what they are doing is licensing the government to buy, sell, and kill live embryos. its cloning.

    23 years of research into this type of study reveals that subjects injected with stem cell therapy had either NO EFFECTIVE RESULTS, or... OR...

    DEVELOPED TUMORS, ETC.
    What are your sources for this BS? And I don't mean right-wing conservative radio commentators or magazines. Show me the SCIENCE that supports this, and maybe I'll listen. Otherwise, you're just spouting religiously or politically motivated hype.

    FWIW, I've seen absolutely nothing in the scientific press to support these statements, and I doubt seriously treobk can find any. I have seen a number of reports showing great promise in certain areas of research. The real key, however, is that without real research we'll never know the answer. I bet treobk believes in "creation science" (an oxymoron if ever there was one), too.
    Bob Meyer
    I'm out of my mind. But feel free to leave a message.
  14. #14  
    Quote Originally Posted by Woof
    Only the poor have kids in Iraq? Let's see some facts on that ok. I mean if only the poor join up then how did Kerry ever get there or Bush? They were never poor. Where you getting your facts? I am guessing but it's not nice to talk about certain body parts in a public forum.
    I'd feel a lot better about Bush & Cheney's support of the war if they convinced THEIR kids to enlist and go to the front. How many of the administration officials who pushed for the invasion have kids in the military? How many congressman and senators have watched their kids go, or had to drop their jobs to go as a member of the reserves?

    Wars are almost always begun and supported by the wealthy, and fought by the poor. WWII and Korea are the only recent exceptions.
    Bob Meyer
    I'm out of my mind. But feel free to leave a message.
  15. #15  
    Quote Originally Posted by meyerweb
    What are your sources for this BS? And I don't mean right-wing conservative radio commentators or magazines. Show me the SCIENCE that supports this, and maybe I'll listen. Otherwise, you're just spouting religiously or politically motivated hype.
    Don't expect too much... Treobk214 is the one who posted a well known urban legend about John Edwards being responsible for the flu vaccine shortage as an anti-Kerry/Edwards argument. (http://discuss.treocentral.com/showp...73&postcount=3)
    “Reality is that which, when you stop believing in it, doesn't go away.” (Philip K. ****)
  16. #16  
    Quote Originally Posted by tjd414
    These arguments are easy because we have no personal involvement in health concerns of people affected by diseases for which we yet have no cures. If it was your wife or husband, or God forbid, your child, that came down with a disease that had a possibility of being cured through the use of stem cells, would you still be against it?
    Yes, because the position is based on principle, not on circumstances. And, further, the current research is not delivering cures. Adult stem cells are providing more promise. Not to mention, the "ban" President Bush ordered does not effect research on existing stem cells. It simply bans federal funds for extracation of new stem cells.

    Quote Originally Posted by tjd414
    The same thing applies to the abortion debate. We would all like to think that we would be strong and have the moral courage to tell our daughters (I have one, btw) that I'm sorry you were raped and got pregnant, but you have to carry the baby to term.

    Since we haven't been in these situations -- it's an easy call for us one way or the other. The other side of the coin is the one we often fail to look at. It's sort of like side two on those old 45's (Chick -- don't you dare ask).
    I would have the same moral courage to tell my daughter (I have two) to carry a pregnancy to term as I do to share with her the benefits (physically, emotionally, maritally, spiritually) of abstinence until married

    Quote Originally Posted by tjd414
    I am very conflicted on these two subjects. I can not condone abortion as a form of birth control. This is a deeply held belief of mine. And because it is MY belief, I really do not feel I have the right to impose it on anyone else. However, I can say that, although I believe abortion is wrong, I feel you have the right to choose. It's not for me to judge. It's between you and your God and you will have to deal with it. In the meantime, I will support you and help you the best I can.
    The question is not a matter of imposing personal beliefs on another. But, rather it is a question of determining what our nation stands for, and, by extension, what we will condone and not condone. I recommend you evaluate WHY you do not condone abortion as a form of birth control. What are the principles underlying that position? What are the risks associated with the opposite view? Then share that informed opinion with any who will listen

    Quote Originally Posted by tjd414
    Your point on stem cell research is a valid one. But it misses the point, I think. Research is more trial and error than it is trial and success. How many times did Salk have to try different vaccines before he found the one we now call penicillin? It's the nature of the beast. If the end result of these embryos is that they will be destroyed, is it better to destroy them or to use them to potentially save more lives? I just don't know, but I am willing to expand the research to see if we can.
    "Beast" is the proper term. It is beastly to even consider sacrificing these lives for dreams. In fact, did it ever occur to anyone that some of the millions of children that have been manually and arbitrarily aborted may have been the very ones who would discover cures for these diseases and maladies. How many "Salks" have we eliminated in the process?

    Quote Originally Posted by tjd414
    These are tough questions. Ones I don't think many of us want to be in the position to answer. I personally do not know how I would choose, put in that situation.
    I would gladly take the position to answer them.

    In fact, I would also pose a new question: How many of the people who advocate abortion and/or embryonic stem cell research would offer them selves to undergo those procedures for research?

    It is fascinating that all the people who support such practices were not subjected to them themselves.
  17. #17  
    [QUOTE=Lakers0340]Stem cell research does not involve killing babies. We can argue until the end of time at what point of time a fertilized egg is considered a life, but we will probably never agree. I don't know much about stem cell research at all, but I do know they aren't killing anything that has developed a nervous system yet. I believe they are taking fertilized eggs that are only a few days old. [\QUOTE]

    In any case, the life is ended. And, we have not doubt that it is the fertilized egg that led to the existence of each of us debating the matter.

    Quote Originally Posted by Lakers0340
    You make Kerry sound like he's a mad scientist out killing babies for a hair-brained idea. The truth is that there are many scientists and much more informed people than us that believe stem cell research can possibly lead to cures. It isn't up to Bush, me, or you to determine whether or not it will succeed. It is up to scientists (in other words, people who know what they are talking about) to at least try.
    However, it is up to us regular people to decide what price we are willing to pay for their research.

    Isn't it interesting that some bemoan the fact that our great-grandchildren will have to bear the tax burden of our lifestyle today, but then would gladly sacrifice that same generation's very existence for research?
  18. #18  
    (raises hand) Small point, Salk invented the Polio vaccine. Sir Alexander Fleming (a Brit) discovered penicillin... (ducks back out)
    Animo et Fide
  19. #19  
    Do all the people who are against embryonic stem cell research feel the same way about in-vitro fertilization?

    Y'all know that thousands of embryos get "wasted" at these clinics every year, right?
  20. #20  
    Quote Originally Posted by PeterBrown
    (raises hand) Small point, Salk invented the Polio vaccine. Sir Alexander Fleming (a Brit) discovered penicillin... (ducks back out)
    Oops, sorry, my bad. My fingers couldn't keep up with my brain!
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