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  1. #21  
    Quote Originally Posted by carter437
    Actually, thats the way things are done during a war. I'm not familiar with POW's or enemy combants being afforded trials.

    As for your first point do you mind elaborating. I can make the point that historically (in the past century) the USSR and China are most responsible for imposing oppressive governments on other people. Of course I'm using the benchmark of the number of people murder and oppressed. Stalin + Mao is around 60 - 70 million people murdered, throw in the oppressed and we are literally in the billions.

    From a view of history, the U.S. has been an instrument for good,prosperity and democracy more than any other nation in history. The US has shed more blood for other nations and peoples than any other nation in history. The U.S. has been the most charitable nation in history. The U.S. has been the most restrained nation in history in terms of military might. I could go on.
    Well the US record in propping up right wing dictators in Latin America has been particularly dismal, not to mention the support for Saddam given by Reagan.
    Animo et Fide
  2.    #22  
    you re leaving out liberal democratic presidents, peter. shame shame. let's be fair and balamced, shall we?
  3.    #23  
    you still don't want to admit the us is the most charitable nation peter
  4. #24  
    I've no problem with the US being charitable at all, and I wasn't calling dem or repub names, just reacting to the accusations against other countries. The world isn't black and white and no-one is entirely on the 'good' side or the 'bad' side. Including Europe, the UN and the USA.
    Animo et Fide
  5. #25  
    Actually, I'm not sure what you're referring to, but the US has a record of removing many dicatators and communist governments in Latin America.

    In general, I find it ironic that many Europeans have such a negative view of America, considering all that America has done for Europe and the world. Though I will admit, I would be more hestitant to put the UK in that category. In the grand scheme of things, if you're honest, America has been a net positive influence on the world in the last century. Would you have rather the last century been Mao's century or Stalins century?

    Heck to see how nice we are, we even let the French continue to think they liberated Paris.

    Edit:

    Peter, I posted this before your last post.
  6.    #26  
    that goes back to an ancient saying - the world is full of humans - therefore, peter, not perfect. but if MOST of what we do in the world leads to a better world in many ways - than that's the point peter. you can't just dwell on convenient negative points here. we could 4
  7. #27  
    I agree Peter, but I don't think countries are equally on the right or wrong side. See what I mean. If I had to choose who would be the worlds lone superpower and my choice was between the UK and China, I would chose the UK. I think most people can see that the UK's laws are closer to what a moral or right government should be than China.

    Side note: I visited London for the first time last month (incredible city). I could've of used your English to American dictionary.
  8. #28  
    Quote Originally Posted by carter437
    Actually, I'm not sure what you're referring to, but the US has a record of removing many dicatators and communist governments in Latin America.
    It does, but sometimes they put them in in the first place! I do believe the US has been an immensely good thing in general - but nobody's perfect. I think the Iraq conflict has been a bad thing, and has wiped out a lot of goodwill.
    Animo et Fide
  9. #29  
    Maybe some goodwill is gone but I don't think there was much in the first place (take France,Germany, U.N. oil for food). Besides after 9-11, I (and many like me) are not concerned with good will. Now I'm not saying Iraq was involved with 9-11 (they weren't) however they were involved with al-qaeda, so after 9-11 you start thinking prevention not reaction.

    Same thing with Iran and they've admitted they have nukes.
  10. #30  
    When I first read the topic header, my first thought was "Kerry uses a Treo? And it's a thread about the case he uses?"

    c
  11. #31  
    Quote Originally Posted by carter437
    Actually, I'm not sure what you're referring to, but the US has a record of removing many dicatators and communist governments in Latin America.
    I am not at all saying the US are the evil empire or anything of that sort, but who are you referring to? Pinochet, Stroessner, Allende, Castro? MAYBE you can count Aristide, but he was just encouraged to follow the orders of the mob in the streets, or Noriega, but he had been more or less installed by the US before he went too far and the US had to take him out. So no South American dictator removed by the US come to my mind, but maybe you know more about it.
    “Reality is that which, when you stop believing in it, doesn't go away.” (Philip K. ****)
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    #32  
    Quote Originally Posted by clulup
    MAYBE you can count Aristide, but he was just encouraged to follow the orders of the mob in the streets...
    Speaking of Aristide, the head of the U.N peacekeeping force in Haiti is blaming Kerry for an upsurge in violence there.

    http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/americas/3750350.stm

    If Kerry thinks he's ready for the big chair, he really ought to learn to control his mouth.
    Talldog
  13. #33  
    Quote Originally Posted by clulup
    I am not at all saying the US are the evil empire or anything of that sort, but who are you referring to? Pinochet, Stroessner, Allende, Castro? MAYBE you can count Aristide, but he was just encouraged to follow the orders of the mob in the streets, or Noriega, but he had been more or less installed by the US before he went too far and the US had to take him out. So no South American dictator removed by the US come to my mind, but maybe you know more about it.
    Good to see some facts being raised in this debate, most people seem to have amnesia when it comes to the darker side of American foreign policy.
  14. #34  
    I was thinking of Ronald Reagan when I made my previous statement. He implemented plans and policies to end communism and dictatorships in Central America (Nicaragua and El Salvador) and his policies succeeded. I'm sure someone will bring up arguments for the methods by which this was done, thats fine. But that is not central to my point.
  15. #35  
    Quote Originally Posted by carter437
    I was thinking of Ronald Reagan when I made my previous statement. He implemented plans and policies to end communism and dictatorships in Central America (Nicaragua and El Salvador) and his policies succeeded. I'm sure someone will bring up arguments for the methods by which this was done, thats fine. But that is not central to my point.
    However, to overthrow the government in Nicaragua, he had them farm poppy plants to introduce crack to the inner city youth, then used that profit to arm the rebels by purchasing the weapons from Iran, of all places.

    Oh wait, it wasn't him, it was those guys down in the basement doing all of this of their own accord ... sure seems like plausible deniability to me. Republican and Democratic presidents have been guilty of this since WWII. We have supported some of the most evil and vial people this world has known: Battista, Peron, Allende, the Sandinistas, Saddam Hussein (don't forgot he was our friend before becoming our enemy), Qaddafi, the Shah, Ky of S. Vietnam, Noriega, Duvalier of Haiti, can't remember the guy from the Dominican Republic to name just a few.

    We support those that best fill our needs concerning our soverignty. Most of the time, it's almost always the wrong person.
    << My command as we escape Palm HQ with a new Pre 3>>.

    Treo 300 >> Treo 600 >> Treo 650 >> Treo 755 >> Instinct >> Pre- >> TouchPad
  16. #36  
    Quote Originally Posted by tjd414
    Most of the time, it's almost always the wrong person.
    "most" "almost"? That's a highly qualified statement. The fact remains I doubt anyone actually tries to back the "evil" side. In hindsight, of course it can seem unseemly but how do you compare it to whatever the alternative was?
  17. #37  
    Quote Originally Posted by carter437
    I was thinking of Ronald Reagan when I made my previous statement. He implemented plans and policies to end communism and dictatorships in Central America (Nicaragua and El Salvador) and his policies succeeded.
    Nicaragua?

    "Nicaragua/History (from Wikipedia):The nation's early history was strongly influenced by military U.S. interventions and marred by lengthy periods of military dictatorship, the most infamous being the rule of the Somoza family (supported by U.S. goverments) for much of the early 20th century. In 1979 the Somoza family was deposed, and a multi-factional coalition took control of the government. Conflicts within the coalition eventually resulted in power being consolidated by Daniel Ortega, who was elected President (in elections marred by opposition refusal to participate) in 1984. Ortega and his Sandinista followers implemented a series of ambitious socialist reforms to the country, but the new president's rule was undermined by increasing civil war in which the United States, under President Ronald Reagan, funded rebel forces, called Contras." (from Wikipedia)

    El Salvador, pacified by Reagan?

    "History of El Salvador (from Wikipedia): Following increasing domestic pressure to the George H. W. Bush administration's continuing support for the Salvadoran government, the US cut off military aid. Consequentially, the Salvadoran government was forced to adopt a different approach to the insurgency. Upon his inauguration in June 1989, President Cristiani called for direct dialogue to end the decade of conflict between the government and guerrillas. An unmediated dialogue process involving monthly meetings between the two sides was initiated in September 1989, lasting until the FMLN launched a bloody, nationwide offensive in November of that year. In early 1990, following a request from the Central American presidents, the United Nations became involved in an effort to mediate direct talks between the two sides. After a year of little progress, the government and the FMLN accepted an invitation from the UN Secretary General to meet in New York City. On September 25, 1991, the two sides signed the New York City Accord. It concentrated the negotiating process into one phase and created the Committee for the Consolidation of the Peace (COPAZ), made up of representatives of the government, FMLN, and political parties, with Catholic Church and UN observers. On December 31, 1991, the government and the FMLN initialed a peace agreement under the auspices of then UN Secretary General Javier Pérez de Cuéllar. The final agreement, called the Chapultepec Peace Accords, was signed in Mexico City on January 16, 1992. A 9-month cease-fire took effect February 1, 1992, and was never broken. A ceremony held on December 15, 1992, marked the official end of the conflict, concurrent with the demobilization of the last elements of the FMLN military structure and the FMLN's inception as a political party."


    Sorry, but your examples do not seem convincing to me, maybe you have better ones?
    “Reality is that which, when you stop believing in it, doesn't go away.” (Philip K. ****)
  18. #38  
    Quote Originally Posted by KRamsauer
    "most" "almost"? That's a highly qualified statement. The fact remains I doubt anyone actually tries to back the "evil" side. In hindsight, of course it can seem unseemly but how do you compare it to whatever the alternative was?
    At least its not an absolute statement that everyone knows can't possibly be true.

    I'll let you draw your own conclusions on how both Presidential candidates make blanket absolute statements and then have the spin meisters fix their gaffes.

    I especially like GW's speech yesterday where he said, rather emphatically, "There is going to be a draft." And then a moment later correcting himslef by saying that "there isn't going to be a draft."

    You know what they say about those Freudian slips, don't you?
    << My command as we escape Palm HQ with a new Pre 3>>.

    Treo 300 >> Treo 600 >> Treo 650 >> Treo 755 >> Instinct >> Pre- >> TouchPad
  19. #39  
    Quote Originally Posted by PeterBrown
    ...and adopting a dictators tactics by incarcerating people without trial.
    "At least seven former prisoners of the United States at Guantanamo Bay, Cuba, have returned to terrorism, despite gaining their freedom by signing pledges to renounce violence."
    http://washingtontimes.com/national/...4854-2279r.htm
    Well behaved women rarely make history
  20. #40  
    Quote Originally Posted by clairegrrl
    "At least seven former prisoners of the United States at Guantanamo Bay, Cuba, have returned to terrorism, despite gaining their freedom by signing pledges to renounce violence."
    http://washingtontimes.com/national/...4854-2279r.htm
    Gee, I never would've seen that coming
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