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  1. #101  
    Why do you keep making things up.

    "On October 5, 2004, the House of Representatives voted 402 - 2 to defeat H.R. 163, the bill cited as proof that the Selective Service was preparing to reinstate a military draft. The vote made official what has been a reality since January 7, 2003, when H.R. 163 was introduced despite nearly total opposition in Congress to restoring the draft. Without Congressional support, the draft cannot be reinstated."

    http://www.sss.gov/
    Well behaved women rarely make history
  2. #102  
    I am absolutely shocked why people choose to obstinately support such a grab bag of liars in the democratic party.

    this party tells you they are fighting for you, wins your confidence somehow, and then turns around and INSULTS all of you with all of these BLATANT LIES, misleading statements, corrupt internal affairs, scandals,etc.

    I just can't understand why people stand for this.

    you know if they were a standup group, and said what they did and did what they said, id have to consider them a qualified opponent.

    But, people, what you have here is the biggest group of lying, miscalculating, scandalous scoundrels in politics - HOW CAN YOU SUPPORT SUCH PEOPLE!

    its just incredible.
  3. #103  
    Quote Originally Posted by tjd414
    OMT, clairegrrl, I appreciate your comments on issues such as these. But you aren't in the situation the troops are. We get to live in the relative comfort and safety here in the US and can make judgements without having to risk our lives. Perhaps you should enlist so you can get a better feel for what it is like to defend your country by actually being in harm's way. It is not an easy task and it is better, imo, to support the troops and to put pressure on the leadership to make sure that as many of them as possible return to enjoy the freedoms they chose to protect.

    Just my .02.
    You seem to have this absurd notion that the only people that can have an opinion about our military are "those who've served". Sorry, but that's not the way it works. My uncle is an Army Ranger and in Special Operations Command. He has been in and out of Iraq six times already, and was in Afghanistan before that. He certainly has a different point of view then you do. Maybe because he is actually there, and not having some fantasy about something that happened before, or about driving the ski boat in Viet Nam 30x years ago.

    Just my nickel
    Well behaved women rarely make history
  4. #104  
    Quote Originally Posted by treobk214
    you don't see the contradiction here?!!

    dems blame bush for bringing the draft into effect. they say he is the one proposing it, he is the one voting for it.

    NO! THEY are the liars here, cell, not bush.

    DEMOCRATS are the ones proposing the draft, voting for the draft, and then turning around to blame bush for proposing it.

    cell, please tell me you are not telling me you think this is not blatant lying, misleading and completely wrong!!!!!!
    Rangel's proposal was controversial and not popular even among democrats but I for one see merit in it. I think everyone should have to share an equal burden of the human cost of war, rich, poor, advantaged, disadvantaged. It will make us all think long and hard about going to war, as all the political constituents will be affected, and the more careful we make the decision, the less chance we will have of making a mistake (like, in my opinion, the Iraq war was). So how Rangel and I see it is: a draft makes the playing field more fair for everyone. It is not an avenue to escalate the war in Iraq, quite the opposite, it is a tool to get people to think more carefully about the committment of troops.

    The House repub leadership has called the bill dead on arrival and we will not know until after the election.
    Last edited by cellmatrix; 10/22/2004 at 02:50 PM.
  5. #105  
    Quote Originally Posted by cellmatrix
    The House repub leadership has called the bill dead on arrival and we will not know until after the election.
    The Bill was voted on and defeated.
    Well behaved women rarely make history
  6. #106  
    Again, EVEN Charlie R. voted against it... do you get that ???
  7. #107  
    Quote Originally Posted by clairegrrl
    The Bill was voted on and defeated.
    I have a tendency to post and edit at the same time, and sometimes I correct my own mistakes.

    sorry I should just get everything right before I post not edit as I go.
  8. #108  
    Quote Originally Posted by Mahootzki
    Again, EVEN Charlie R. voted against it... do you get that ???
    yes I got that, sorry for the error above. But now I see that only two democrats out of hundreds voted for it. So democrats are not supporting a draft. so what? how are they hypocrites? You hate Rangel, good for you, you call him a hypocrite, I think he was smart to use the bill to open a discussion that sorely needed discussing - whether the playing field should be leveled when we decide who goes to war.
    Last edited by cellmatrix; 10/22/2004 at 03:04 PM.
  9. #109  
    but cell, you still don't see the point. democrats were blaming bush claiming HE, and the repubs, would be the one to propose the draft.

    cell, bush and the repubs didn't bring this draft up at all.
    it did not come from anywhere within the party, as kerry was accusing.

    cell, the draft proposal came from within his OWN PARTY, not bush's, yet he's trying to say bush will propose it.

    please, this is such an obvious contradiction to see.
  10. #110  
    Quote Originally Posted by cellmatrix
    whether the playing field should be leveled when we decide who goes to war.
    The playing field is extremely level...it's an all volunteer army.
    Well behaved women rarely make history
  11. mrjoec's Avatar
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    #111  
    Quote Originally Posted by treobk214
    but cell, you still don't see the point. democrats were blaming bush claiming HE, and the repubs, would be the one to propose the draft.

    cell, bush and the repubs didn't bring this draft up at all.
    it did not come from anywhere within the party, as kerry was accusing.

    cell, the draft proposal came from within his OWN PARTY, not bush's, yet he's trying to say bush will propose it.

    please, this is such an obvious contradiction to see.

    I don't know any democrat who claims that Bush brought up the idea of the draft. I belive their argument is that Bush's preventive war strategy will make a draft necessary in the long run, because enlistment is bound to go down and more armed conflicts are bound to arise.

    As Bush always says about Kerry (paraphrased, of course): "He tells you he has a plan, but he doesn't tell you how's he's going to pay for it." Bush wants to continue the war on terror his way, but he doesn't have an effective solution to the enlistment problem.

    Everyone knows the bill was DOA. No one in his or her right mind would vote for a draft BEFORE re-election. But, as was suggested earlier, it was brought up (by a Democrat) to get people thinking about the possibilities that lie ahead, should our current foreign policies continue. And to get out the young voters, who are typically apathetic and more often than not liberal. One of those rare wise political moves by the Dems, I would say. Dirty trick? Maybe. But that's how the game is played.

    Don't try to tell me you think the Republicans have never lied to us, either. Cheney's list of lies in the last couple of months alone would make his nose reach clear to Tokyo. ALL POLITICIANS LIE. Fact of life.

    Bush is still stumping the "Global Test" deception, and the ridiculous "75% of Al Quada operatives" statistic every day.
    mrjoec
    www.joecieplinski.com
  12. #112  
    Quote Originally Posted by mrjoec
    Don't try to tell me you think the Republicans have never lied to us, either. Cheney's list of lies in the last couple of months alone would make his nose reach clear to Tokyo. ALL POLITICIANS LIE. Fact of life.
    KERRY'S NOSE PROVES IT!

    Yes I did, wait, no, I did not, wait.........

    Well behaved women rarely make history
  13. KKenna's Avatar
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    #113  
    The part's that missing is that Charlie introduced the bill in January as a tool to point out that a draft would be needed to continue our efforts in Iraq. It was hugely un-popular and was never voted on. The republicans decided to bring it up for a vote now, just in time for the election, so they could claim it was the democrats that want the draft. Charlie never really wanted the draft in the first place, so of course he voted against it. Why is this seen as flip-flopping ? The bill was more of a put-up or shut-up piece of legislation. Draw a line in the dirt and pick a side. On this issue, you can't draft legislation to not have a draft, so you have to introduce the legislation and take the oppposing side.
  14. #114  
    im not saying the repubs are free from fault, but kerry spewed the same things you are now calling lies from bush.

    hypocrites
  15. mrjoec's Avatar
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    #115  
    Huh? When did Kerry "spew" anything about the supposed killing or capturing of 75% of Al Quaeda operatives?

    And to anyone who actually watched the debates, Kerry's mentioning of a "global test" was clearly not an indication that he meant to forfeit our pre-emptive power. He simply meant that if we are going to engage in preventative war, we need to have clear justification for it. Yet, Bush continues to use it on the stump, stating falsely that Kerry wouldn't go to war unless the UN allowed him to.
    mrjoec
    www.joecieplinski.com
  16. #116  
    Quote Originally Posted by mrjoec
    I don't know any democrat who claims that Bush brought up the idea of the draft. I belive their argument is that Bush's preventive war strategy will make a draft necessary in the long run, because enlistment is bound to go down and more armed conflicts are bound to arise.
    I think the Democrat arguments are more simple than that, and are designed to create fear: "If you vote for Bush, you may be drafted." It's a scare tactic, and scare tactics are used by both sides, but this one is completely without any basis in fact. I heard MTV's "Rock the Boat" spokesperson give that exact message, and she did it with a straight face.

    Don't try to tell me you think the Republicans have never lied to us, either.
    OK.

    Cheney's list of lies in the last couple of months alone would make his nose reach clear to Tokyo.
    I haven't seen any "lie" by Cheney. Could you point some specific "lies" out?

    Bush is still stumping the "Global Test" deception, and the ridiculous "75% of Al Quada operatives" statistic every day.
    I'm not sure how the "Global Test" statements are a deception. Kerry said what he said in the debate, and in the context that his actions would be subject to some sort of approval by other countries. He has said the same thing before, more directly. The most direct statement which comes to mind is really old (about 25 years old), where Kerry talked about not taking any foreign action without the prior approval of the UN.

    Regarding the 75% Al Queda statistic, why are you implying that number is wrong?
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  17. #117  
    Quote Originally Posted by KKenna
    The part's that missing is that Charlie introduced the bill in January as a tool to point out that a draft would be needed to continue our efforts in Iraq.
    I heard Charlie talking about the bill a couple of months ago. He didn't say it was a "tool" to point out a draft would be needed, but something very different. Charlie explained how blacks and other minorities were disproportionately killed in Vietnam, and that if there were a draft now, the rich white boys would have to share an equal burden in Iraq, and the rich white parents would therefore be against the war.

    It was race-baiting at its finest, and yet another low in American politics.
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  18. #118  
    Quote Originally Posted by heberman

    I think the Democrat arguments are more simple than that, and are designed to create fear: "If you vote for Bush, you may be drafted." It's a scare tactic, and scare tactics are used by both sides, but this one is completely without any basis in fact. I heard MTV's "Rock the Boat" spokesperson give that exact message, and she did it with a straight face.
    This is similar to **** Cheney insinuating that if you vote for Kerry, another terrorist attack will occur, and as you said, both parties do it, and now more so than ever in the last few weeks...which is disappointing on both sides.


    Quote Originally Posted by heberman
    .

    Regarding the 75% Al Queda statistic, why are you implying that number is wrong?
    http://www.factcheck.org/article271.html

    "The President said twice that "75 percent" of al Qaeda leaders have been "brought to justice." But as The Associated Press reported Oct. 1, Bush was referring to the deaths or arrests of 75 percent of bin Laden's network at the time of the September 11 attacks -- not those who are running the terrorist organization today. The AP also reported that the CIA said earlier in the year two-thirds of those leaders are gone; at his acceptance speech in September, Bush increased his count to three-fourths based on unreleased intelligence data.

    Furthermore, the London-based International Institute for Strategic Studies reported May 25 that the occupation of Iraq has helped al Qaeda recruit more members. The institute quoted "conservative" intelligence estimates as saying that al Qaeda has 18,000 potential operatives and is present in more than 60 countries."
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  19. #119  
    Forget about mutiny....
    Here is yet another problem, and who can blame them for not rushing back...

    Army captain sues government, saying Iraq assignment came after he had retired

    October 22, 2004, 6:36 PM EDT
    NEW YORK (AP) _ An Army captain sued the government Friday to block his pending deployment to Iraq, saying he resigned in June after completing eight years in the Army Reserve, including four years of active duty.

    Jay J. Ferriola, 31, said in the lawsuit in U.S. District Court in Manhattan that Secretary of Defense Donald Rumsfeld unlawfully continues to exercise control over him even though he properly resigned and was asked to turn in his equipment.

    The lawsuit acknowledged that the New York resident has never received a written, official response to his resignation request.

    Herb Haddad, a government spokesman, said the government had no comment on the lawsuit, which asked a judge to process and approve Ferriola's resignation.

    Ferriola received orders Tuesday for him to report next Monday to a base on Uniondale, Long Island, for active duty with the 306th Military Police Battalion, which will leave for a year and a half "on a dangerous mission in Iraq," the lawsuit said.

    In a release, his lawyer, Barry I. Slotnick, said his client was the victim of a backdoor draft but outside court he declined to elaborate.

    "I don't want to get into a political issue," he said.

    Slotnick said his client was not taking the action because he feared the dangerous mission but because he wanted to get on with his life.

    "I completed eight years of duty. I never intended to make a career out of the Army," he told reporters. "I wanted to pursue other careers in civilian life."
  20. #120  
    And then there is also this today....

    U.S.: Hundreds of soldiers have failed to report for duty
    Copyright 2004 AP Online
    By ROBERT BURNS, AP Military Writer
    WASHINGTON (October 22, 1:13 pm ADT) - More than 800 former soldiers have failed to comply with Army orders to get back in uniform and report for duty in Iraq or Afghanistan, the Army said Friday. That is more than one-third of the total who were told to report to a mobilization station by Oct. 17.

    Three weeks ago the number stood at 622 amid talk that any who refused to report for duty could be declared Absent Without Leave. Refusing to report for duty normally would lead to AWOL charges, but the Army is going out of its way to resolve these cases as quietly as possible.

    In all, 4,166 members of the Individual Ready Reserve have received mobilization orders since July 6, of which 2,288 were to have reported by Oct. 17. The others are to report in coming weeks and months.

    Of those due to have reported by now, 1,445 have done so, but 843 have neither reported nor asked for a delay or exemption. That no-show rate of 37 percent is roughly in line with the one-third rate the Army had forecast when it began the mobilization to fill positions in regular and Reserve units. By comparison, the no-show total of 622 three weeks ago equated to a 35 percent rate.

    Of the 843, the Army has had follow-up contact with 383 and is seeking to resolve their cases, according to figures made public Friday. For the 460 others, "We are still working to establish positive contact," the Army said. Some may not have received the mailed orders.

    Members of the Individual Ready Reserve, or IRR, are rarely called to active duty. The last time was 1990, when nearly 20,000 were mobilized. IRR members are people who were honorably discharged after finishing their active-duty tours, usually four to six years, but remained in the IRR for the rest of the eight-year commitment they made when they joined the Army. They are separate from the reserve troops who are more routinely mobilized - the National Guard and Reserve.

    The Army anticipated, based on past experience, that about one-third of the IRR people it called up would be disqualified for medical or other reasons. The trend so far bears that out.

    The Marine Corps, meanwhile, said Friday that a Marine killed in western Iraq earlier this week, Sgt. Douglas E. Bascom, 25, of Colorado Springs, Colo., was a member of the Individual Ready Reserve. He was the first IRR Marine to die in Iraq, according to Gunnery Sgt. Kristine Scharber, a spokeswoman at Marine Corps headquarters in the Pentagon.
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