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  1. #61  
    Quote Originally Posted by ToolkiT
    adition: the other point you bring up is people should be aware of that risk when they sign on..
    I dont get the impression army recruiters show the risk enough (understanable otherwise very few people would actually sign up) if you look at recruiting here in europe they make it sound like a boyscout trip, but never mention real danger, just 'adventure'
    Some do and some don't. It is easy not to be upfront during peace time. Now is a different story. There is nothing wrong with saying that they can go to school, travel, etc. But they should also say that there is a chance you will have to go to war. You would think that is common sense. But...
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  2. #62  
    Quote Originally Posted by mrjoec
    But the bottom line is, once they were there, these men were obligated to complete the mission, if for nothing else, for their fellow servicemen.
    I could have not said it any better.
    Me = Nokia 5170/Palm III > Kyocera 6035 > Treo 600 > Treo 650 > Treo 700p > Treo 755p > Treo Pro > Palm Pre

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  3. #63  
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  4. #64  
    A very interesting article. My question is why is the reponsibility for incidents like this (as well as the prison incidents) always having the lowest ranking guy/girls taking the fall?

    Where are the cries of outrage that should be leveled at higher ups that sent inferior equipment over to Iraq? Where does this responsibilty finally fall? On the lives of the kids who went there, on orders, to fight the battles of the Administration.

    They have spent over $120B, where is it all going?
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  5. #65  
    Quote Originally Posted by heberman
    I think of D-Day with all of the soldiers piled up in the boats ready to storm the beach. For many in the first waves, it was a suicide mission, but they did it anyway, and were trained to follow orders without hesitation. War, and the sacrifice involved, is horrible.
    I feel for our troops, but I have to say, while the Normandy invasion was heroic, Iraq invasion was misguided. It is gratuitous to imply that the Iraq war's purpose even comes close to helping the world the way the Normandy invasion did. They are not EVEN close. And the troops know that Bush admin is mishandling the Iraq occupation, the majority of them polled have said so openly. If you think someone's policies are screwed up, and your life is on the line with that screw up, it is REASONABLE to speak up before you get killed.

    The Iraq war has created more problems than solutions and we were mislead into it. We were dooped into believing there was a threat, when there was none, now we are left with a big mess. Bush has created one mess after another, he has dessimated our budget surplus and created huge debt. He has ruined our reputation throughout the world, and his attempts to fight terrorism are at the wrong people and just make the problem worse. The guy is a total screw-up. Bush is the WORST president we have EVER had! I am totally serious. I honestly cannot imagine why all of you support him.
    Last edited by cellmatrix; 10/21/2004 at 11:05 AM.
  6. #66  
    Hey cellboy...where haveya been? Vacation??
    Well behaved women rarely make history
  7. #67  
    Not vacation, but work has been pretty intense lately. Thanks for asking, I will try to put my two bits in when I can. I am glad that we can have a friendly disagreement about politics and not let it get in the way of the comradery of the forum
  8. #68  
    Quote Originally Posted by clairegrrl
    No kit...it's you that have missed the point. These guys ignored a legal order.
    no grrl, the discussion point was, when can a soldier refuse an order.
    And what makes a order 'legal'...
    <IMG WIDTH="200" HEIGHT="50" SRC=http://www.visorcentral.com/images/visorcentral.gif> (ex)VisorCentral Discussion Moderator
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  9. #69  
    Quote Originally Posted by cellmatrix
    Not vacation, but work has been pretty intense lately. Thanks for asking, I will try to put my two bits in when I can. I am glad that we can have a friendly disagreement about politics and not let it get in the way of the comradery of the forum
    Just remember...the forum comes first. Work and home are second. After the election, the topics may change, but everybody will still be here. I know that you will bemoan the fact that Kerry will lose, but think, you will have four more years to knock Bush around Have fun!
    Well behaved women rarely make history
  10. #70  
    Quote Originally Posted by clairegrrl
    Just remember...the forum comes first. Work and home are second. After the election, the topics may change, but everybody will still be here. I know that you will bemoan the fact that Kerry will lose, but think, you will have four more years to knock Bush around Have fun!
    Thanks Claire for your encouragement. If the Red Sox can win the World Series, then I guess anything can happen
  11. #71  
    Quote Originally Posted by ToolkiT
    no grrl, the discussion point was, when can a soldier refuse an order.
    Maybe your army has a debate each time an order is given. This would allow the individual soldier to decide if there was enough information available for them do make a decision on whether they would obey the order or just ignore it. I think not
    Well behaved women rarely make history
  12. #72  
    Quote Originally Posted by cellmatrix
    If the Red Sox can win the World Series, then I guess anything can happen
    See...there's something we can agree on
    Well behaved women rarely make history
  13. #73  
    Quote Originally Posted by clairegrrl
    Maybe your army has a debate each time an order is given. This would allow the individual soldier to decide if there was enough information available for them do make a decision on whether they would obey the order or just ignore it. I think not
    /me check colour of his clothes... nope they are not green.
    in other words, we are not in the army here so we can discuss orders...

    I think it is an important issue otherwise you get issues like in nazi germany where nobody dared to question orders..
    <IMG WIDTH="200" HEIGHT="50" SRC=http://www.visorcentral.com/images/visorcentral.gif> (ex)VisorCentral Discussion Moderator
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  14. #74  
    Theres a big difference however. A soldier has a right to disregard an order if it is immoral or a war crime etc. However, if a soldier can refuse an order based on the criteria that the order might cause him bodily harm, then no one would be required to fight.

    This isn't to say the order was not a very bad decision.
  15. #75  
    Quote Originally Posted by carter437
    Theres a big difference however. A soldier has a right to disregard an order if it is immoral or a war crime etc. However, if a soldier can refuse an order based on the criteria that the order might cause him bodily harm, then no one would be required to fight.

    This isn't to say the order was not a very bad decision.
    Agreed!
    <IMG WIDTH="200" HEIGHT="50" SRC=http://www.visorcentral.com/images/visorcentral.gif> (ex)VisorCentral Discussion Moderator
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  16. #76  
    cellmatrix, "anything can happen" "anyone can win"

    I'd like to refer you to the thread entitled "break from politics- comic relief ".
  17. #77  
    Quote Originally Posted by ToolkiT
    /me check colour of his clothes... nope they are not green.
    in other words, we are not in the army here so we can discuss orders...

    I think it is an important issue otherwise you get issues like in nazi germany where nobody dared to question orders..
    So you are equating the American military to the Nazis in WWII??
    Well behaved women rarely make history
  18. #78  
    Quote Originally Posted by treobk214
    cellmatrix, "anything can happen" "anyone can win"

    I'd like to refer you to the thread entitled "break from politics- comic relief ".
    yes, saw that
  19. #79  
    I think this turns our little philosophical debate around a bit. If the person whom you are getting orders from is incompetent, and is sending you out to get killed because of it, do you have a right to refuse, especially if you are not hurting anyone else in doing so? That is think is one question.

    Another question is: does this represent a systemic problem in our operations in Iraq that is indicative of poor morale and poor overall leadership?
  20. mrjoec's Avatar
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    #80  
    No, Claire. He's actually comparing our position on the matter to Nazi Germany, and suggesting that what the American soldiers did was right. But I still don't think it's a fair comparison.

    I think we can talk about this issue all we want. We can question the validity of orders, etc. That's just fine. We're civilians. (Though I am wearing a green shirt today.)

    But those soldiers, on the other hand, at the time that they were ordered to complete this mission, shouldn't have had that option. It's just not practical from a military standpoint. If our soldiers started to think for themselves, they'd hesitate so often that our overall mission would be guaranteed to fail. Any brain with a conscience is going to find a way to justify avoiding danger. The whole point of basic training is to destroy that human tendency to think when under pressure, and instead rely completely on the orders given.

    This is why so many soldiers, when they return from war, are left with huge psychological problems. Their brains start to think, as they couldn't at the time of the conflict, about the rational side of things, and a sudden rush of what they've done hits them.

    I don't think it's fair to compare this situation to Nazi Germany, because the mission in question here was a risk to the soldiers themselves, but it wasn't anything illegal or immoral. They weren't ordered to shoot 100 innocent children. They weren't being told to put people in ovens, or perform biological experiements on them. They were simply being asked to do something extremely dangerous, and, granted, pointless. There's a difference.

    If you want to blame someone for the mission, blame the higher levels of commanders, who shouldn't have planned this particular mission in the first place, and who aren't taking responsibility for the mess. The biggest concern I have in this whole matter is that, as before with the prison scandal, the foot soldiers are taking all the blame for what ultimately is the responsibility of the people in command.

    Whatever happened to Generals claiming full responsibility for the actions of their underlings? Maybe the reason why so many privates are getting frustrated over there is that they don't feel they're getting full support from their leaders. I'd get pretty upset if my fellow men were constantly getting scapegoated for every failed mission, too.

    But there's still no excuse for avoiding danger at the expense of a fellow soldier.
    mrjoec
    www.joecieplinski.com
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