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  1. #41  
    Quote Originally Posted by treobk214
    and beyond that too...
    good lord. i dont think clairegirl was saying anything so inappropriate here, eurokitty. for the love of god, eurokit, so damn touchy! geezus.

    and may the power of grayskull be with you, eurokitty
    To me it looks like both are a bit sensitive at the moment (and to be honest I get the feeling they are the rule rather than the exeption in pre election US)
    Lets all try to stay courtious to each other regardless of their political views..

    Back on topic:
    Regards of wethere you are/were for or against the Iraq war, do you feel soldiers have the right to refuse going on suicide missions like described here?
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  2. #42  
    Quote Originally Posted by ToolkiT
    Back on topic:
    Regards of wethere you are/were for or against the Iraq war, do you feel soldiers have the right to refuse going on suicide missions like described here?
    I don't know what the legal situation is, but I guess they don't have the right to refuse and decide on their own when normal duty stops and suicide mission begins. Armies tend to be a bit stubborn about the chains of command.
    “Reality is that which, when you stop believing in it, doesn't go away.” (Philip K. ****)
  3. #43  
    Quote Originally Posted by clulup
    I don't know what the legal situation is, but I guess they don't have the right to refuse and decide on their own when normal duty stops and suicide mission begins. Armies tend to be a bit stubborn about the chains of command.
    I can understand the strategic militairy reasoning behind this, but on the other hand I can remember it being used as a defense for nazi concentration camps guards who were 'merely doing what they were ordered'...
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  4. #44  
    Quote Originally Posted by ToolkiT
    I can understand the strategic militairy reasoning behind this, but on the other hand I can remember it being used as a defense for nazi concentration camps guards who were 'merely doing what they were ordered'...
    That is not the same. It is legal not to obey to orders that lead to criminal actions, violations of the Geneva Convention, etc., as far as I know. Going on a suicide mission is not illegal.
    “Reality is that which, when you stop believing in it, doesn't go away.” (Philip K. ****)
  5. #45  
    Quote Originally Posted by clulup
    That is not the same. It is legal not to obey to orders that lead to criminal actions, violations of the Geneva Convention, etc., as far as I know. Going on a suicide mission is not illegal.
    True. But they usually ask for volunteers.

    Having been a veteran, you are clearly permitted the opportunity to deny following an order you deem to be illegal. This adds a personal "judgement" to determining whether an order is illegal or not (is that a double negative??). In these soldiers' minds, it may have been illegal because it placed their lives in jeopardy (can't you just hear that song right now?).

    Regardless of your position on issues, the point here is that the troops do not have the proper equipment to carry out thier mission. Traditionally this always happened to the National Guard and the Reserves. They were/are sort of like the little kid -- you know -- the one that always seems to get the hand-me-downs. You can always tell what was in style threeo or four years ago, because he/she is wearing that stuff now.

    Same thing applies. It just goes to state that if we are to rely on the all volunteer armed services with mobilization of Guard and Reserve units a very likely scenario, then we should be outfitting them accordingly.
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  6. #46  
    Quote Originally Posted by treobk214
    why thankyou, tjd414!!! an invaluable correction, indeed! i will store that away for future reference.
    This word (capisce) always seems to have more impact if you have:

    • A rather large nose,

    • A last name ending with a vowel,

    • No problem going back to prison




    Don't flame me, I'm Italian ...

    And, Chick, no, I don't have a large nose nor have I been to prison (I knew you would ask )
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  7. #47  
    Quote Originally Posted by tjd414
    In these soldiers' minds, it may have been illegal because it placed their lives in jeopardy.
    You can chose to refuse an order in the military if it places your life in jeopardy? Wouldn't that make things very complicated for the people in command?
    “Reality is that which, when you stop believing in it, doesn't go away.” (Philip K. ****)
  8. #48  
    Quote Originally Posted by clulup
    You can chose to refuse an order in the military if it places your life in jeopardy? Wouldn't that make things very complicated for the people in command?
    I thought that the topic I was replying to was on "suicide missions" and limited my comments to this subject. I guess I wasn't very clear on that.
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  9. #49  
    Quote Originally Posted by tjd414
    I thought that the topic I was replying to was on "suicide missions" and limited my comments to this subject. I guess I wasn't very clear on that.
    I guess the point is who can decide what is a suicide mission and what is normal duty. I don't think the superiors of the soldieres who did not obey orders would agree that those soldiers were on a suicide fuel delivery (or whatever it was) mission.
    “Reality is that which, when you stop believing in it, doesn't go away.” (Philip K. ****)
  10. #50  
    Quote Originally Posted by ToolkiT
    Back on topic:
    Regards of wethere you are/were for or against the Iraq war, do you feel soldiers have the right to refuse going on suicide missions like described here?
    This will probably answer your question. And I could go on and on and on finding articles against what they did.

    Enlistment oath:

    "I, _____, do solemnly swear (or affirm) that I will support and defend the Constitution of the United States against all enemies, foreign and domestic; that I will bear true faith and allegiance to the same; and that I will obey the orders of the President of the United States and the orders of the officers appointed over me, according to regulations and the Uniform Code of Military Justice. So help me God."

    Uniform Code of Military Justice:

    Article 90Assaulting or willfully disobeying superior commissioned officer.”

    Article 94Mutiny and sedition

    Article 99Misbehavior before the enemy

    However, I wasn't there and we do not know all the facts. Once we know all the facts then I will give you my opinion whether they deserve everthing outlined on the above articles. But I must admit that I don't think that is looking good for them right now. Again, just my opinion.
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  11. #51  
    Quote Originally Posted by cash70
    This will probably answer your question. And I could go on and on and on finding articles against what they did.

    Enlistment oath:

    "I, _____, do solemnly swear (or affirm) that I will support and defend the Constitution of the United States against all enemies, foreign and domestic; that I will bear true faith and allegiance to the same; and that I will obey the orders of the President of the United States and the orders of the officers appointed over me, according to regulations and the Uniform Code of Military Justice. So help me God."

    Uniform Code of Military Justice:

    Article 90Assaulting or willfully disobeying superior commissioned officer.”

    Article 94Mutiny and sedition

    Article 99Misbehavior before the enemy

    However, I wasn't there and we do not know all the facts. Once we know all the facts then I will give you my opinion whether they deserve everthing outlined on the above articles. But I must admit that I don't think that is looking good for them right now. Again, just my opinion.
    Thanks for the info.. The question in this matter is a suicide mission a 'lawfull command'
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  12. #52  
    Quote Originally Posted by ToolkiT
    Thanks for the info.. The question in this matter is a suicide mission a 'lawfull command'
    What is the definition of a suicide mission in the military? Was delivering fuel without the proper equipment a suicide mission? If so, was the Mogadishu raid in Somalia a suicide mission since they did not have the proper equipment requested by the General? Was the Normandy invasion a suicide mission since the commanders knew that "some" would not make it? Some might argue that just joining the military these days is a suicide mission. The bottom line is before anyone joins, they should know that they will be put into harms way at some point. If it doesn't happen during the time that they serve...awesome! But that is just the nature of the job...IMHO.
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  13. #53  
    Quote Originally Posted by cash70
    What is the definition of a suicide mission in the military? Was delivering fuel without the proper equipment a suicide mission? If so, was the Mogadishu raid in Somalia a suicide mission since they did not have the proper equipment requested by the General? Was the Normandy invasion a suicide mission since the commanders knew that "some" would not make it? Some might argue that just joining the military these days is a suicide mission. The bottom line is before anyone joins, they should know that they will be put into harms way at some point. If it doesn't happen during the time that they serve...awesome! But that is just the nature of the job...IMHO.
    I think you hit the essence of this issue.. how much risk is acceptable?
    in a D-day scenario a suicide mission maybe an acceptable sollution, in a fuel run? I'm not sure, don't know the situation for this case..
    Very tough dilemma..
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  14. #54  
    adition: the other point you bring up is people should be aware of that risk when they sign on..
    I dont get the impression army recruiters show the risk enough (understanable otherwise very few people would actually sign up) if you look at recruiting here in europe they make it sound like a boyscout trip, but never mention real danger, just 'adventure'
    What fahrenheit 911 showed it that in the US they target lower class people who are out of jobs and have very little options. not sure how realistic that image is but i think it is not that far from the truth..
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  15. #55  
    Quote Originally Posted by ToolkiT
    I think you hit the essence of this issue.. how much risk is acceptable?
    in a D-day scenario a suicide mission maybe an acceptable sollution, in a fuel run? I'm not sure, don't know the situation for this case..
    Very tough dilemma..
    What's tough. This was a group of 18 out of a few hundred. Somebody else had to do their job.
    Well behaved women rarely make history
  16. #56  
    Quote Originally Posted by clairegrrl
    What's tough. This was a group of 18 out of a few hundred. Somebody else had to do their job.
    I think you missed the whole point of the discussion...
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  17. #57  
    Quote Originally Posted by ToolkiT
    I think you missed the whole point of the discussion...
    No kit...it's you that have missed the point. These guys ignored a legal order.
    Well behaved women rarely make history
  18. mrjoec's Avatar
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    #58  
    I have to agree with Claire here. While this incident speaks volumes about all kinds of problems in the upper levels of our armed forces, issues with poor planning, etc., there's no excuse for disobeying a direct order. The entire code of the military is based on the chain of command, and the only thing that keeps a soldier going in times of struggle is the absolute conviction that the guy standing next to him will die for him without hesitation.

    Out here in the real world we get to decide which actions are good or bad for us. A soldier does not have that luxury.

    It's similar to the code of fire fighters. No one wants to jump into a burning building, but the bottom line is that if you don't, your friend is going to die.

    As Claire pointed out, other people were forced to do this mission. Which means the troops who refused the mission essentially killed some of their fellow soldiers. That's unacceptable.

    Now, whether the mission was justified is a whole other discussion. And you'll get plenty of support from me if you want to start talking about the stinking heap of incompetence, greed, and bull-headed ignorance that got those soldiers into this situation in the first place. And the fact that this sort of thing is happening speaks volumes about how disorganized and ineffective our efforts over there are. But the bottom line is, once they were there, these men were obligated to complete the mission, if for nothing else, for their fellow servicemen. Once that fundamental sense of willingness to put the unit over yourself breaks down, there's no hope for success in combat, and we might as well pack it in and go home right now.

    All combat is a potential suicide mission. If I question whether or not the guy next to me is going to fight with me or turn away and run, I lose my resolve, and the battle is over before it began.
    mrjoec
    www.joecieplinski.com
  19. #59  
    Quote Originally Posted by ToolkiT
    I think you hit the essence of this issue.. how much risk is acceptable?
    in a D-day scenario a suicide mission maybe an acceptable sollution, in a fuel run? I'm not sure, don't know the situation for this case..
    Very tough dilemma..
    Well, I know that a "fuel run" for most people might seem as something unacceptable to put their life at risk. But we have to think about the group that needed the fuel. What is their situation? Again, we don't have all the facts. But it will be very hard for them to get out of this one, IMO.
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  20. #60  
    I think of D-Day with all of the soldiers piled up in the boats ready to storm the beach. For many in the first waves, it was a suicide mission, but they did it anyway, and were trained to follow orders without hesitation. War, and the sacrifice involved, is horrible.
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