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  1.    #1  
    I have mentioned this before, but now that Republicans start wondering about the same, I dare mentioning it again: The situation in Iraq is not getting any better...

    - Major parts of the country not under control of the US/the Iraqi "government" (e.g. Sadr City in Bagdad with about 2 million inhabitants, the whole region south of Bagdhad, partly also the Basra region).

    - The death toll does not go down, each month about 50 US soldiers die, more than last year.

    - Numerous militant Islamistic groups are present in Iraq now (including Al Qaida) - groups that were not there before. Terror reigns, foreign workers needed to build up the country again leave Iraq because of the daily kidnappings and killings, each day government representatives are murdered, etc., etc.

    - The terror of Saddam has been replaced by the terror of Islamistic militants, who blow up Iraqi civilians at will. The situation is not getting any better, to the contrary...

    Under these circumstances, "rebuilding Iraq" of course is not possible:
    (Quotes from Fox News)
    "'It's beyond pitiful, it's beyond embarrassing, it's now in the zone of dangerous,' said Sen. Chuck Hagel, R-Neb., referring to figures showing only about 6 percent of the reconstruction money approved by Congress last year has been spent."

    Hagel, Committee Chairman Richard Lugar, R-Ind., and other committee members have long argued — even before the war — that administration plans for rebuilding Iraq were inadequate and based on overly optimistic assumptions that Americans would be greeted as liberators.

    But the criticism from the panel's top Republicans had an extra sting, coming less than seven weeks before the U.S. presidential election in which Bush's handling of the war is a top issue.

    "Our committee heard blindly optimistic people from the administration prior to the war and people outside the administration — what I call the 'dancing in the street crowd' — [who said] that we just simply will be greeted with open arms," Lugar said. "The nonsense of all of that is apparent. The lack of planning is apparent."


    Lack of planning, lack of knowledge, lack of support, not enough troops to control the situation... great job, Bush, Rumsfeld & Co.
    “Reality is that which, when you stop believing in it, doesn't go away.” (Philip K. ****)
  2. #2  
    This is ending up to be this generation's Vietnam and ultimately Bush's major downfall. Can we say we are surprised by the outcome of this war?
  3. #3  
    Sounds like you guys are rooting for war to fail... Is you hatred for Bush that deep?
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  4. #4  
    Quote Originally Posted by cellmatrix
    Without putting words in people's mouths.....maybe they would have loved to have seen success, but hate that our troops keep dying while we make little or no progress there? Just a wild guess......

    So what's your solution? Leave immediately like what Howard Dean wants? The only solution now is to stay and win, whatever you define as win at this point...which would most likely mean a unified stable Iraq with some pseudo-democratic institutions that is not radical Islamist. You may criticise GWB all you want, but the truth is that a Kerry administration would probably have almost the same goals and policy in Iraq...
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  5. #5  
    Quote Originally Posted by gfunkmagic
    So what's your solution? Leave immediately like what Howard Dean wants? The only solution now is to stay and win, whatever you define as win at this point...which would most likely mean a unified stable Iraq with some pseudo-democratic institutions that is not radical Islamist. You may criticise GWB all you want, but the truth is that a Kerry administration would probably have almost the same goals and policy in Iraq...
    Sorry, I actually deleted my comment because on reflection I thought it it did not add to the mean-spirited discussion that was brewing. Yes Kerry has similar end goals it seems, but I would like to see these goals realized and I am frustrated because I think the war could have been and could now be handled better. It peaks my frustration to hear the news above.

    There are some specific policy differences between Kerry and Bush for sure. I would like to see more reaching out to NATO to help in the rebulding. This go it alone (or 90% alone) and thumbing our noses at some of our NATO allies is really not a rational way towards progress. I would like to see a much greater intensification of Iraqi security force training. I would like to see a stronger focus on preventing neighboring countries namely Iran, from fueling the Iraqi insurgents.

    But it is not just overall policies or overall goals, it is how they are handled and how effectively they are carried out. If you have an employee with whom you go over the goals, and he is telling you he has some type of plan, but the job is not getting done, and he keeps making excuses, well I would fire the person and hire someone else. That is the way I feel about Bush right now.
    Last edited by cellmatrix; 09/16/2004 at 08:10 PM.
  6. #6  
    Mission Accomplished my ***

    The war there is lost...there is no point.... ask the families of the over 1000 of our troops that died there, most of these people joined to make a few extra bucks a month, to get a career when they had no future here, or tried to get there college paid for for a better life....

    We can not protect the citizens that needed to be freed.... never mind our own troops... Nice plan... The Pentagon courtesy of Paul Wolfowitz only had 11 years to draw up this plan...

    Perhaps next we can free mainland China.... They are an oppressed people under a totalitarian goverment with REAL weapons of mass destruction, and if nobody helps us, we can have all the rebuilding contracts there too!
  7. #7  
    Quote Originally Posted by TrySpammingMe

    The war there is lost...there is no point.... ask the families of the over 1000 of our troops that died there, most of these people joined to make a few extra bucks a month, to get a career when they had no future here, or tried to get there college paid for for a better life....
    Most of them??

    That is an extremly selfish and uneducated reason to take an oath of such great magnitude- to protect and defend the United States of America. If that is truely what makes up the majority of our troops (which I personally dont believe). What kind of productive outcome can be expected? If this is true, then the only blame to be put on the administration would be the serious lack of an organized screening process that would allow such people to join in the first place.

    My clients son has been injured and his regrets are not joining, but that while he is recovering his unit would be without his services!!!! Those are the kind of people I believe make up the majority of our armed forces.

    Sorry to ramble that is just an extremly disturbing thought.... WTF???
  8. #8  
    It has been 3 entire years and no significant terrorist activity has taken place on american soil. Do you think thats a coincidence? I think it just might be because they are little preoccupied at the moment....
  9. #9  
    ah yes. let's stir up the bush supporters with another anti-bush thread, mmmkay? pleazze.
    no one said iraq would b,
  10. #10  
    how would the great international player switzerland handle dictatorships and al qaeda terrorism?
    how would this omniscient swiss party take this bull by the horns? ooh im dying to hear this. making the popcorn now, folks.
  11. #11  
    I've quoted kerry saying he supported our invasion of iraq in previous threads. and that based on what we know now, he still would have voted us in. so what exactly do you think would be so spectacularly different about a kerry admin. in office? he'd have had the same military commanders making the same decisions in iraq! this is just more of the same old stuff.
  12. #12  
    Quote Originally Posted by treobk214
    making the popcorn now, folks.
    Heh! This is sure to be another action packed thread, that's for sure.

    Grudges aside, it's actually a good question: How is the war in Iraq going? War always looks bad in the news (we are talking about the activity of killing people here), but is this really another Vietnam for the U.S.? Is the war being won? Can it be won? ...What does winning this war entail, anyway?
  13. #13  
    Quote Originally Posted by snerdy
    Is the war being won? Can it be won? ...What does winning this war entail, anyway?
    I think we went to Iraq to liberate Iraqis from Saddam Hussein, to ensure that the country would no longer be a hiding place for those who mean America harm, and to hand power over to the free Iraqi people.

    The terrorists think we don't have the stomach to fight against them and that we will just leave. Kinda like what Kerry wants to do.

    "Al Qaeda wants to defeat Bush to avenge his tough stance against them after the 9/11 attacks. They know that John Kerry would usher back the Clinton days of timid U.S. reaction and that the Democrat's likely repeal of vital sections of the Patriot Act would open the door for their terror strikes in America.

    The thugs want Bush out and are determined to ratchet up the cost of the Iraq War to bring about his ouster. That's why they will target any American they can. By having the troops continue their current activist role in Iraq, Bush is sticking to his policies at the risk of committing political suicide.

    Turning sovereignty over to Iraq won't stop the terror attacks. They will decline only after Bush is either re-elected or defeated. It is the elections in the United States, not those in Iraq, that the enemy most seeks to influence". This by **** Morris http://www.nypost.com/postopinion/op...ists/22386.htm
    Well behaved women rarely make history
  14. #14  
    Here again this linking of Iraq to al-qaeda, they weren't in Iraq till Saddam was toppled! Bush has strengthened al-qaeda by giving them a country to use as a playground.
    Animo et Fide
  15. #15  
    Quote Originally Posted by PeterBrown
    Here again this linking of Iraq to al-qaeda, they weren't in Iraq till Saddam was toppled! Bush has strengthened al-qaeda by giving them a country to use as a playground.
    If thats the big point you want to make...fine. I assume that means that you agree with what was said. I think most Americans would rather fight them in Iraq then in the streets of the US. In my country, just like yours, it is very ewasy for a small group of peeps to some nasty $hit to a large group of people. What if they crashed a plane into Big Ben, or the Tower of London or what ever huge national symbol you have. What if they blew up the Eiffel Tower. I know that the French think they are imune to all of this. Isnt it better doing all of this in Iraq?
    Well behaved women rarely make history
  16. #16  
    Quote Originally Posted by clairegrrl
    I think we went to Iraq to liberate Iraqis from Saddam Hussein, to ensure that the country would no longer be a hiding place for those who mean America harm, and to hand power over to the free Iraqi people.
    That seems very reasonable. I wonder if our government states it so clearly. (Have you thought about running for office?) Does anyone know a source for some sort of official stated goals in the war? Are we meeting those goals? How's it going? What's your name? Come here often? ...Err, wait. Skip those last few questions -- I got off into another thought entirely.

    Quote Originally Posted by clairegrrl
    Turning sovereignty over to Iraq won't stop the terror attacks. They will decline only after Bush is either re-elected or defeated. It is the elections in the United States, not those in Iraq, that the enemy most seeks to influence".
    That makes me want to go hide under the bed. Couldn't they just buy a vote like everyone else? Sheesh.
  17.    #17  
    Quote Originally Posted by gfunkmagic
    Sounds like you guys are rooting for war to fail... Is you hatred for Bush that deep?
    Not at all. All I was saying is that Bush went to Iraq based on nonsensical assumptions, which becomes obvious now. The soldiers pay the price, not Bush or Rumsfeld, who (against warnings from high-ranking people in the military), claimed 150'000 troops would be enough.
    “Reality is that which, when you stop believing in it, doesn't go away.” (Philip K. ****)
  18.    #18  
    Quote Originally Posted by gfunkmagic
    The only solution now is to stay and win, whatever you define as win at this point...which would most likely mean a unified stable Iraq with some pseudo-democratic institutions that is not radical Islamist...
    That would be a solution. But as the situation is now, I cannot see how you can get there. I think it would have been wiser to invest more time in thinking before going to Iraq. But Bush was kind of in a rush, had to make sure to get a hold of those dangerous WMD, and to cut the links of Saddam with Islamistic terrorism.
    “Reality is that which, when you stop believing in it, doesn't go away.” (Philip K. ****)
  19.    #19  
    Quote Originally Posted by sxtg
    It has been 3 entire years and no significant terrorist activity has taken place on american soil. Do you think thats a coincidence? I think it just might be because they are little preoccupied at the moment....
    You think they are preoccupied with killing Americans in Iraq and therefore don't try to attack the US? Maybe, but I doubt it.
    “Reality is that which, when you stop believing in it, doesn't go away.” (Philip K. ****)
  20.    #20  
    Quote Originally Posted by clairegrrl
    I think most Americans would rather fight them in Iraq then in the streets of the US.
    I am sure most Americans would. But are you trying to say without the war in Iraq, the Iraqi insugents would shoulder their RPGs and their AK-47s, fly over to the US, and start firing?
    “Reality is that which, when you stop believing in it, doesn't go away.” (Philip K. ****)
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