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  1. #41  
    And lets not forget the leaders of Palau, Solomon Isles, Tonga and Micronesia. They are our dearest pals too being a part of the coalition of the willing!
  2. #42  
    Quote Originally Posted by clairegrrl
    That's OK. Of the world leaders, he is one of the best. And he's a pal to the US
    He should have resigned for that though. It's one big black mark against him.
    Animo et Fide
  3.    #43  
    Quote Originally Posted by clairegrrl
    It amazes me that you wold consult world governments with all the knowledge regarding Al Qaida. Thomas Kean was co-chair of the 9/11 commission and they found evidance, weak or otherwise. When you sit on the sidelines and never have to make any decision, your thoughts, no matter how absurd, always look correct.
    Thanks for the personal attack and calling my thoughts absurd.

    If I may remind you, my statement was "It is true that there were SOME links, but they were extremely weak and certainly of no importance for Al Qaida."

    When you compare this to the final statements of the 9/11 commission, you will find that my statement was very much in line with their findings:

    "The final report (...), finding (...) no "collaborative operational relationship" and specifying that these contacts did not indicate "that Iraq cooperated with al Qaeda in developing or carrying out any attacks against the United States." (Source)
    “Reality is that which, when you stop believing in it, doesn't go away.” (Philip K. ****)
  4. #44  
    Quote Originally Posted by clulup
    Thanks for the personal attack and calling my thoughts absurd.

    If I may remind you, my statement was "It is true that there were SOME links, but they were extremely weak and certainly of no importance for Al Qaida."

    When you compare this to the final statements of the 9/11 commission, you will find that my statement was very much in line with their findings:

    "The final report (...), finding (...) no "collaborative operational relationship" and specifying that these contacts did not indicate "that Iraq cooperated with al Qaeda in developing or carrying out any attacks against the United States." (Source)
    Oh so sorry you took that as a personal attack. Its just when you continue with your Bush-bashing, call him stupid, your general distain for the United States and its policies and your arrogant approach, I take those things personally, so...whatever
    Well behaved women rarely make history
  5. #45  
    For us to be spending $150 billion on this war, losing 1000 lives plus and the clock keeps ticking with no end in sight, you just have to ask yourselves, was going into Iraq the right thing to do?

    The link between al queda and Iraq, the evidence of WMD, and every other possible explanation of Iraq being a threat to the US was only clear in the minds of people who blindly believe everything Bush tells them.

    Sure, we need to finish what we started in Iraq, no doubt, but that does not take away from the fact that it was a big mistake in the first place.

    I am not "rooting" for failure, I am optimistic we can get ourselves out of this mess, without having a civil war in Iraq. I am optimistic that we can again take on a productive approach to fighting terrorism and protecting our interests.

    Afganistan I agree with, but the Iraq approach we have taken hurts us far more than it helps. Lets learn from our mistakes people!
  6. #46  
    its absurd. "your president is a moron. your policies are all futile. everything your country represents is corrupt and misdirected. you're all fools."
    oh, but you cant retort me though. ok? i will consider it a personal attack, ok? i can say whatever i want about YOUR country but you CANNOT at all say anything back to me that might at the very least be considered derogatory in ANY way!", because i, of course, have ALL the answers.
    absolutely ridiculous. talk about a one-way guy!
  7. #47  
    Quote Originally Posted by treobk214
    its absurd. "your president is a moron. your policies are all futile. everything your country represents is corrupt and misdirected. you're all fools."
    oh, but you cant retort me though. ok? i will consider it a personal attack, ok? i can say whatever i want about YOUR country but you CANNOT at all say anything back to me that might at the very least be considered derogatory in ANY way!", because i, of course, have ALL the answers.
    absolutely ridiculous. talk about a one-way guy!
    Where did Clulup say these things? The great part of TC is that it is searchable and archives our thoughts. I couldn't find where Clulup said any of those things tho, perhaps you can.

    On the other hand I have found Clulup to be called many different names here. He has said he likes the US and has spent time here. I invite everyone to take a look at what Clulup has written in the past, and then view the name calling he has received. We seem to have no problems constantly making fun of the Swiss on this board, but I haven't seen Clulup once do that of americans.

    If I am wrong provide links showing what Clulup has said. It is easy enough for me to provide links supporting my statements.
  8. #48  
    its absurd. "your president is a moron. your policies are all futile. everything your country represents is corrupt and misdirected. you're all fools."
    oh, but you cant retort me though. ok? i will consider it a personal attack, ok? i can say whatever i want about YOUR country but you CANNOT at all say anything back to me that might at the very least be considered derogatory in ANY way!", because i, of course, have ALL the answers.
    absolutely ridiculous. talk about a one-way guy!
  9. #49  
    an attack on your country's leader is not an attack on you. The attitude that the two are related is one reason I have similar feelings about patriotism as you do about religion, Woof.
    Animo et Fide
  10. #50  
    Lack of planning, lack of knowledge, lack of support, not enough troops to control the situation... great job, Bush, Rumsfeld & Co.

    at the beginning of the thread, tribal, the above is a quote. clulup did not use the, pardon me, exact words, but he is in essence, indirectly saying this in many of the comments he makes.

    i may not be quoting the exact wording, but you can pretty much get the picture, tribal, if you read enough of what he is saying. you are concerned with linking quotes here. you should go back and read many of his posts in previous threads here,( i agree, that is what is so great about tc), and you can pretty much formulate the position he is coming from. come on,now, its not that hard.
  11. #51  
    Quote Originally Posted by PeterBrown
    an attack on your country's leader is not an attack on you. The attitude that the two are related is one reason I have similar feelings about patriotism as you do about religion, Woof.
    sheesh! where does woof suddently fit into this discussion? i dont see him anywhere in this thread?
  12. #52  
    er, I meant similar to the feelings Woof has about religion. Sorry treobk!
    Animo et Fide
  13. #53  
    Quote Originally Posted by PeterBrown
    er, I meant similar to the feelings Woof has about religion. Sorry treobk!
    no problem, peter
  14. #54  
    I'm on the mobile forum so no editing I'm afraid
    Animo et Fide
  15. #55  
    i can relate, i frequently post while on the go, myself, actually. a little tricky, i agree.
  16. #56  
    Ok now I am in this thread.
    “There are four boxes to be used in defense of liberty: soap, ballot, jury, and ammo. Please use in that order.”
    — Ed Howdershelt
    "A government big enough to give you everything you want, is big enough to take away everything you have."- Thomas Jefferson
  17. #57  
    nice to have you aboard, woof! welcome, partner.
  18. #58  
    "There was no question...relationship..." - understand that these are loaded words, especially "relationship". In this context relationship is ambiguous. Al Qaeda operatives and Iraq, more specifically, Saddam certainly have many relationships: Operatives probably do live, or may have once lived, in Iraq; Iraq may be familiar with them, their whereabouts, etc. What does this tell you? Nothing. The 9/11 commission did not mention whether the Iraqi gov't was conspiring with Al Qaeda, or harboring international terrorists. We can say with certainty that Saddam was a terrorist within his own country, but that's not the point now is it.

    That's just my take on these words: carefully crafted. Unless you can say with a great degree of certainty (e.g. Iraq has WMDs) and clarity that which is fact, everything else seems to be more rhetoric and posturing.

    Think out of the box - that's what our politicians do. They've mastered the game of posturing. They are pretty well adept at the game. Their job, through words and calculated actions (to the extent that these actions can be controlled by them), is to convince middle America (why? because they represent the normal distribution of voters) why they know what they're doing and why Americans should vote for them.

    Iraq was an obvious mistake. It was just as much policy mistake as a moral mistake. But that's what bothers me. We make policy mistakes all the time. But the war is morally repugnant. It is being fought on false premises. Known false premises. That's what really bothers me.

    Many of us are in agreement that international terrorism (not just terrorism aimed at the US) needs to be exterminated. That's not what's at stake here. Our country will continue to defend itself whether Bush or Kerry is at the helm. I don't think the effectiveness of that defense differs between candidates, although they want you to believe otherwise What is more important lies in the moral fabric threading such domestic policies and programs.

    I've had my share of making ad hominem attacks on our President; however, I don't do that anymore. It's not effective in trying to understand how we want to live, how we want our kids to live. politician bashing, muck raking and finger pointing is done by politicians and their aides to fuel the fervor WITHIN YOU. Remember the stock market crash in 2000? Well, prior to that many folks were buying stocks based on emotion. They felt good about the market going up. They bought not only because crooked analysts said so, but because they felt numbers didn't really matter: the market was an emotionally positive force at that time. Don't align yourself emotionally with the market. Likewise, don't align youself emotionally with politics (unless, of course you're doing it for rhetoric's sake).

    Make informed decisions about what is right and what is sincere.

    Quote Originally Posted by clairegrrl
    WRONGO..."THERE WAS NO QUESTION in our minds that there was a relationship between Iraq and al Qaeda."

    Those are the words of Thomas Kean, of the September 11 Commission. He made the statement on July 22, 2004, 10 days after a New York Times headline declared, "9/11 Report Is Said to Dismiss Iraq-Qaeda Alliance," and a month after another headline in the same paper blared, "Panel Finds No Qaeda-Iraq Tie."
  19. #59  
    Quote Originally Posted by PeterBrown
    Sxtg, are you being deliberately obstinate? How can the links be irrelevant? If you're going to go after someone for 9/11 surely you go after the guys who did it? If there are no links, and there certainly weren't any significant ones, then that takes away terrorism as a reason for the Iraq war.
    At no stage did the US try to convince the UN that there was a link to terrorism, the push was regarding weapons of mass destruction, which most of the world was sceptical about - correctly as it turns out
    No I am not being deliberately obstinate!

    However unfortunate for the skeptics such as yourself, the future terrorist attacks that have been prevented by the invasion will never come to light. Thanks GWB!!!
    Quote Originally Posted by PeterBrown
    If you're going to go after someone for 9/11 surely you go after the guys who did it?
    Do you really suffer from dillusions that 9/11 was last and final stand from the terrorist movement?

    As long as everyone else is making absurd analogies, here's mine: When I clean my house I don't stop with the vaccuming, I usually go ahead and dust while I'm at it.

    Even rudimentary defense organizations realize that the best defense is a strong offense. during the initial period after the attack on 9/11 all the anti Bush protesters were complaining that something should have been done to prevent it. Now that there is effort being made to prevent such attacks, they move on to the next obvious reason to complain wich is currently an "unjustified attack".

    If we had destroyed Al Quida before 9/11 would you have been in support of that? Maybe... but I doubt it. Of course its always easier to stomach a reaction than it is to support proaction! The fact remains that if attacks to that degree were made on your soil, you'd be a fool to not do everything in your power to prevent it from happening again. I dare say that most of the countries in protest would be knocking on our door for help!
  20. #60  
    Quote Originally Posted by sxtg
    ...

    As long as everyone else is making absurd analogies, here's mine: When I clean my house I don't stop with the vaccuming, I usually go ahead and dust while I'm at it.
    Nicely put.

    Quote Originally Posted by sxtg
    Even rudimentary defense organizations realize that the best defense is a strong offense. during the initial period after the attack on 9/11 all the anti Bush protesters were complaining that something should have been done to prevent it. Now that there is effort being made to prevent such attacks, they move on to the next obvious reason to complain wich is currently an "unjustified attack".

    If we had destroyed Al Quida before 9/11 would you have been in support of that? Maybe... but I doubt it. Of course its always easier to stomach a reaction than it is to support proaction! The fact remains that if attacks to that degree were made on your soil, you'd be a fool to not do everything in your power to prevent it from happening again. I dare say that most of the countries in protest would be knocking on our door for help!
    Well said.
    “There are four boxes to be used in defense of liberty: soap, ballot, jury, and ammo. Please use in that order.”
    — Ed Howdershelt
    "A government big enough to give you everything you want, is big enough to take away everything you have."- Thomas Jefferson
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