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  1. #81  
    Again, all support for my claim that religion is a blight upon mankind.
    “There are four boxes to be used in defense of liberty: soap, ballot, jury, and ammo. Please use in that order.”
    — Ed Howdershelt
    "A government big enough to give you everything you want, is big enough to take away everything you have."- Thomas Jefferson
  2. #82  
    Quote Originally Posted by clairegrrl
    As a fact, swisserville has the second highest handgun ownership and handgun murder rate in the industrialized world. The US wins the Gold and is numero uno.

    This was based on statistics available in 1992

    http://www.huppi.com/kangaroo/L-switzerland.htm
    Statistics are a tricky business. I am sure you did note that "the second highest handgun murdership rate" does not really tell you a lot about the situation in Switzerland. It may reflect the fact that like in the US, handguns are used quite often in homicide, but it may also reflect the fact that other means (like baseball bats, knives, etc.) are used LESS frequently in Switerland relative to handguns when compared to other nations. Since an average US citizen's chance of being murdered is five times that of an average Swiss, the chance of a Swiss being killed by a handgun is still waaaay lower then that of an American.
    Clulup, so you have or have had an assault weapon, correct? Here are some interesting comments http://www.gunowners.org/op0039.htm
    This article is a joke, full of flawed logic. I am sure you noticed that, too. Also the facts are wrong. E.g. crime rate in Switzerland did not go up after a more strict weapon control was established.

    Keep in mind that the high "handgun ownership" rate does not primarily come from Swiss who find guns the coolest thing on earth, but from members of the army who happen to have their military assault rifles at home. This is just a stupid old tradition that will eventually go away. The military rifles are very rarely used for murder or other criminal activity (but every single case is one case too much, of course).
    “Reality is that which, when you stop believing in it, doesn't go away.” (Philip K. ****)
  3. #83  
    Quote Originally Posted by clulup
    Statistics are a tricky business. I am sure you did note that "the second highest handgun murdership rate" does not really tell you a lot about the situation in Switzerland.
    Yes...very tricky. What it tells me is that switzerland is #2, thats right...second highest handgun ownership and handgun murder rate in the industrialized world.
    Well behaved women rarely make history
  4. #84  
    Quote Originally Posted by Chick-Dance
    I can't help asking: Are you an atheist Woof?
    Nope not an athiest. I just don't need a church to tell me how to be spiritual. My relationship is between me and the higher power. I don't think anyone who listens to a bunch of other people that tell them what and how to believe has one clue about God (or whatever name you want to use). Religion was devised by men to control others so they could make money and sway opinions in the name of "God".

    I could go on but I dont wish to share my beliefs and opinions about that stuff in this format. Too hard to explain and as often as I am misinterpreted in politics, I am not going to open myself up to anything like that.
    “There are four boxes to be used in defense of liberty: soap, ballot, jury, and ammo. Please use in that order.”
    — Ed Howdershelt
    "A government big enough to give you everything you want, is big enough to take away everything you have."- Thomas Jefferson
  5. #85  
    I would fancy my chances of going to Switzerland and not getting shot more than just about any country, I don't think there is a gun culture there along the lines of the US. Here in the UK we banned private gun ownership after some looney walked into a primary school in Scotland in 1996 and killed 16 kids...incidentally the Scots guy who has just won the US junior tennis title survived the attack. I agree with Woof whole heartedly regarding religion..it is a blight on mankind and the root of most evils / wars which is deeply ironic considering all the luurrve and goodwill to everyone it purports to convey. And Chick Dance, I don't believe you have to be an atheist to be cynical about the merits of religious beliefs, just a realist !!
  6. #86  
    Quote Originally Posted by clairegrrl
    Yes...very tricky. What it tells me is that switzerland is #2, thats right...second highest handgun ownership and handgun murder rate in the industrialized world.
    - who the heck is Larry Pratt ??!! You really do have it in for poor Clulup
    That article says absolutely nowt...Switzerland is probably one of the safest places in the world to live especially after the late 20's when all the gun toting heavies such as renowed gangsters Zurich Dillinger and Basle Capone were forced out..
  7. #87  
    Quote Originally Posted by murrayalex
    I would fancy my chances of going to Switzerland and not getting shot more than just about any country, I don't think there is a gun culture there along the lines of the US. Here in the UK we banned private gun ownership after some looney walked into a primary school in Scotland in 1996 and killed 16 kids...incidentally the Scots guy who has just won the US junior tennis title survived the attack. I agree with Woof whole heartedly regarding religion..it is a blight on mankind and the root of most evils / wars which is deeply ironic considering all the luurrve and goodwill to everyone it purports to convey. And Chick Dance, I don't believe you have to be an atheist to be cynical about the merits of religious beliefs, just a realist !!
    Murray you make it sound like visiting the uS will get you shot. That is hardly the case. And the population having guns was the only way we successfully won our freedom from Britain. We'll not give that up easily.

    Nice to see your agreement on religion. And I concur with your statement about athiesm.
    “There are four boxes to be used in defense of liberty: soap, ballot, jury, and ammo. Please use in that order.”
    — Ed Howdershelt
    "A government big enough to give you everything you want, is big enough to take away everything you have."- Thomas Jefferson
  8. #88  
    Quote Originally Posted by Woof
    Murray you make it sound like visiting the uS will get you shot. That is hardly the case. And the population having guns was the only way we successfully won our freedom from Britain. We'll not give that up easily.

    Nice to see your agreement on religion. And I concur with your statement about athiesm.
    Hi Woof...just using the US as someone else was comparing the 2 countries. No offence meant I can assure you...
  9. #89  
    ok, none taken. Just wanting to clarify.
    “There are four boxes to be used in defense of liberty: soap, ballot, jury, and ammo. Please use in that order.”
    — Ed Howdershelt
    "A government big enough to give you everything you want, is big enough to take away everything you have."- Thomas Jefferson
  10. #90  
    Quote Originally Posted by murrayalex
    - who the heck is Larry Pratt ??!!
    Oh...sorry. I thought everyone was familiar with Larry Pratt. He writes for Gun Owners of America
    Well behaved women rarely make history
  11. #91  
    Quote Originally Posted by Woof
    Murray you make it sound like visiting the uS will get you shot. That is hardly the case.
    "Using data through 1996, the U.S. Department of Justice study Crime and Justice concluded that in England the robbery rate was 1.4 times higher, the assault rate was 2.3 higher, and the burglary rate was 1.7 times higher than in the United States."

    But at least you wont get shot
    Well behaved women rarely make history
  12. #92  
    If those figures are correct - and I'd like to see a primary source - then that only reinforces the case for gun control. If incidence of violent crime is higher in Britain (and I suspect - if true - that might be because there is a higher proportion of people living in cities) then you would expect gun crime to be higher as well.
    Animo et Fide
  13. #93  
    Well behaved women rarely make history
  14. #94  
    And as noted by yourself Claire, gun crime in Switzerland is much higher than in Britain, notwithstanding it being held up as an ideal example. Which only goes to show that even in ideal situations (as switzerland is described in glowing terms on that site) prevalence of guns leads to prevalence of gun crime.
    Animo et Fide
  15. #95  
    Quote Originally Posted by PeterBrown
    And as noted by yourself Claire, gun crime in Switzerland is much higher than in Britain, notwithstanding it being held up as an ideal example. Which only goes to show that even in ideal situations (as switzerland is described in glowing terms on that site) prevalence of guns leads to prevalence of gun crime.
    I think clulup will disagree with you. The swiss after all are "special" people. That also doesnt explain why England without its guns has a higher rate of assault, burglery and robbery then the US. If you dont use a gun when you rob someone, what do you use? A swiss army knife?
    Well behaved women rarely make history
  16. #96  
    Quote Originally Posted by Chick-Dance
    PB. I agree with your gun-control statements and ideology. Having said that, I wanted to point out that owning a gun in the US is taken out of logical proportions for it is directly equated to the Constitution. People think in terms of RIGHTS to own guns regardless of the consequences. Instead, I look at it this way: It's my constitutional right NOT to own a gun. I'd rather own an iPod.
    Having guns does not means you will commit crime and the lack of guns clearly does not remove crime. I'd prefer a gun over an ipod. Unless of course ipods have some crimefighting feature that Apple isnt advertising.
    “There are four boxes to be used in defense of liberty: soap, ballot, jury, and ammo. Please use in that order.”
    — Ed Howdershelt
    "A government big enough to give you everything you want, is big enough to take away everything you have."- Thomas Jefferson
  17. #97  
    Quote Originally Posted by clairegrrl
    Clairegrrl, did you read the article you quoted? Because I don't get it:

    "...in 1994 the homicide rate in England (including Wales) was 1.4 (..) per 100,000 population."

    "Switzerland had a homicide rate of 1.2 per 100,000"

    "In a word, Switzerland, which is awash in guns, has substantially lower murder (...) rates than England, where most guns are banned."

    WHAT??? 1.2 instead of 1.4 is "substantially lower"? This guy proves himself that he does not have a point. Don't tell me I am the first to notice!

    Apart from that: Correlation does not mean Causation. All the data presented are just correlations, they don't really show anything.

    Take this example:
    It can be statistically proven that the stork brings the babies: In the last century, the decline of stork populations strongly correlated with the reduced number of babies born...

    Or another one: Cars cause TV - the more cars found in a given population, the higher the number of TVs...
    “Reality is that which, when you stop believing in it, doesn't go away.” (Philip K. ****)
  18. #98  
    Quote Originally Posted by Chick-Dance
    If you rip music illegally the iPod does have a crime factor effect

    ----------
    Actually Woof, I never mentioned the word crime in my previous post. My gun control comment was regarding the Constitution.

    Oh sorry I didnt realize you had changed the subject.
    “There are four boxes to be used in defense of liberty: soap, ballot, jury, and ammo. Please use in that order.”
    — Ed Howdershelt
    "A government big enough to give you everything you want, is big enough to take away everything you have."- Thomas Jefferson
  19. #99  
    [QUOTE=Chick-Dance]If you rip music illegally the iPod does have a crime factor effect

    I say, lets get artists to donate music, load it up on ipods and then have an ipod for illegal gun giveaway, here and in Iraq too. I don't have an illegal gun but if I did, I would trade one for an ipod in a second!

    OK, I'll shut up now......
  20. #100  
    Quote Originally Posted by clulup
    Clairegrrl, did you read the article you quoted? Because I don't get it:

    "...in 1994 the homicide rate in England (including Wales) was 1.4 (..) per 100,000 population."

    "Switzerland had a homicide rate of 1.2 per 100,000"

    "In a word, Switzerland, which is awash in guns, has substantially lower murder (...) rates than England, where most guns are banned."

    WHAT??? 1.2 instead of 1.4 is "substantially lower"? This guy proves himself that he does not have a point. Don't tell me I am the first to notice!

    Apart from that: Correlation does not mean Causation. All the data presented are just correlations, they don't really show anything.

    Take this example:
    It can be statistically proven that the stork brings the babies: In the last century, the decline of stork populations strongly correlated with the reduced number of babies born...

    Or another one: Cars cause TV - the more cars found in a given population, the higher the number of TVs...
    You are soo worried that somebody is going to say something about swissland. Maybe you need a vacation. The point I was making was that even without guns, England had more assaults, robberies and burlgerys then the US
    Well behaved women rarely make history

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