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  1.    #21  
    yeah that is my point. you take such a simple little quip and try and turn it into such a big issue of respect for other countries.
    don't you understand, moose? how do you turn comment like that into disrespect for All OUTSIDE NATIONS? how laughable! as I said before, in saying that, you are being completely ridiculous. what a big deal you make out of absolutely nothing.
    once again.... I return you to my question which you conveniently and obviously avoided - DO YOU AGREE WITH WHAT GORE SAID?
    That is the topic of dicussion, therefore that is the question to you.
  2. #22  
    I hope that anyone who reads your post that I am quoting below, conservative or liberal, will come to a conclusion (as I just did) that your ability to debate an issue coherently and respectfully does not exist. And that, treobk214, is a losing cause.

    Quote Originally Posted by treobk214
    shaddup, moose. you are ridiculous.. and you can call that a "personal attack" if ya want.
    oh boy.. what a gigantic insult I gave there... im sure I offended the mass number of cultures of the world by my little " swisslander cheese" quip. moose, big, whoop - de - doo - da , freakin deal!!! if you think that was disrespectful, that's laughable.
    "aint got none" ha ha. oh boy, yeah and you've got terrific respect for the english language there, ace... and I use that term "ace" loosely in your case.
    big deal... unbunch your panties there, moose... unbelievable.. you can overlook what the main point of this topic - ignore al gore's bizarre statement - because you'd rather create an international "respect" thing with this little comment. wow.
    in all honesty, moose, I am sure I did not cause an international rift in our current situation. I am sure there won't be a boycott, or ban or summit meeting focusing on the issue of your claim that I have no respect for other countries!
    discuss the topic, don't try and create a diversion from it. its clear YOU "aint got no respect" for sticking with the point of the topic. so get over this, comrade. its a stupid accusation.
    I have never let my schooling interfere with my education.
    -Mark Twain
  3. #23  
    Quote Originally Posted by treobk214
    yeah that is my point. you take such a simple little quip and try and turn it into such a big issue of respect for other countries.
    don't you understand, moose? how do you turn comment like that into disrespect for All OUTSIDE NATIONS? how laughable! as I said before, in saying that, you are being completely ridiculous. what a big deal you make out of absolutely nothing.
    once again.... I return you to my question which you conveniently and obviously avoided - DO YOU AGREE WITH WHAT GORE SAID?
    That is the topic of dicussion, therefore that is the question to you.
    You have not apologized yet. And regarding Gore: Foolish comment. As foolish as Bush's past-comments on religion.
    I have never let my schooling interfere with my education.
    -Mark Twain
  4.    #24  
    and trying to convince those readers that I have no respect for other countries as a result of a comment like that will be a losing cause as well.
    what decides the loser here is that you are avoiding the question moose. can you or can't you answer it?
  5.    #25  
    apologize for what? for a quip like that? please, moose. what readers will see is the big deal you arD
  6. #26  
    Quote Originally Posted by treobk214
    apologize for what? for a quip like that? please, moose. what readers will see is the big deal you arD
    I answered your question. You did not apologize.
    I have never let my schooling interfere with my education.
    -Mark Twain
  7.    #27  
    I shake my head at this request " you did not apologize."
    what I consistently find interesting is how people will divert an argument from the issues to these innane little accusations. let's see how we can sabotage the topic and go from the debate to issues of respect for other nations.
    do you suppose clulup's feelings were so terribly hurt? please, hardly.
  8.    #28  
    moose and chickdance, I think you both should read over many of these threads where several of your sympathizers have performed quite well in categorizing themselves under the "unable to debate coherently or respectfully" slot.
    there have been many instances where I have tried to keep debates civil despite the attempts to entrap one into a mudslinging frenzy, which I believe you have attempted to do here.
    hey, look at the sarcastic tone in clulup's post - do you expect a tangible degree of companionship in response to these types of remarks? do you think you'd respond warmly to him if you opposed his views? id be interested. should he apologize?
  9. #29  
    Quote Originally Posted by treobk214
    I shake my head at this request " you did not apologize."
    what I consistently find interesting is how people will divert an argument from the issues to these innane little accusations. let's see how we can sabotage the topic and go from the debate to issues of respect for other nations.
    do you suppose clulup's feelings were so terribly hurt? please, hardly.
    I normally don't venture into political discussions for they are one-size-fits-one-head type of deliberation. But I can't help it this time. Let me point out to you treobk214 where you failed in your quest and request of others to stay on topic and not "sabotage" your thread. Go back to post #3 of this thread. You were in the driver's seat up to that point: It was YOUR thread and YOUR topic. After post #3 you lost control of your vehicle. Now, you might look at post #3 as a little quip. Some of us look at it as an insult. Regardless if clulup thinks your comment was "nothing" (I am still curious if he does), the point is: You changed the direction of your thread. You want m00se to stay on topic but you changed the direction of it yourself.
    And regarding Gore's comment (see: I am trying to stay on topic!): More power to him. His expressions are nothing more, or less, than the joy I hold for our freedom of speech. Bush can attack back, by the way: The First Amendment was not created just for liberals
    Last edited by Muziek; 09/12/2004 at 12:23 AM.
  10.    #30  
    well it appears many consider that comment a derisive insult and sign of disrespect to the swiss culture.
    I personally have close friends which I frequently visit in glattbrugg, as I have said here before, so its not possible for me to regard switzerland with the disrespectful, egocentric attitude a certain few are trying to pin on me here.
    in actuality I was responding to the tone that was directed toward me, and apparently my passions had gotten the better of my judgements. I apologize for the comment since it apparently has offended so many here.
    but thankyou muziek for pointing some things out for me in this thread. I acknowledge the statements you've made, and will be mindful of them in the future.
  11. #31  
    From Gore's speech:
    "In a world of disconcerting change, when large and complex forces threaten familiar and comfortable guideposts, the natural impulse is to grab hold of the tree trunk that seems to have the deepest roots and hold on for dear life and never question the possibility that it's not going to be the source of your salvation."

    Sounds like the Democrats holding onto the fading belief that they will be in the White House in 2005!
  12. #32  
    From Gore's speech in question:

    "In a world of disconcerting change, when large and complex forces threaten familiar and comfortable guideposts, the natural impulse is to grab hold of the tree trunk that seems to have the deepest roots and hold on for dear life and never question the possibility that it's not going to be the source of your salvation."

    Sounds like the self-description of a man grasping to the faded concept that he is relevent to anything in public policy or opinion anymore...
  13. #33  
    To go back to the original post:
    Christian fundamentalism is equivalent to Islamic fundamentalism. Whether or not Bush is a fundamentalist must be the issue. Now I don't know the answer to that, I suspect he isn't myself. I would strongly disagree on some of his interpretations of the Bible but that doesn't make him a fundamentalist. Many bad things have been done by people of all religions who call themselves fundamentlists (to bring in a different religion here Ghandi was murdered by a Hindu extremist, for example).
    Bush has used the word 'crusade' before now when talking about Iraq, the crusades were some of the worst atrocities committed in the name of Christianity ever - the Pope has recently apologised for them to Islam - so if Bush aligns himself with them he shows his faith in a very bad light.
    Animo et Fide
  14. #34  
    PeterBrown's post is one good example of how to debate without attacking each other personally.
  15. #35  
    I think the whole tone of this conversation shows how volatile it can become when you mix politics with religion. "God Bless America" can be a wonderful thing to say, or it can be a vehicle for saying my group is more patriotic and more religious than your group.

    I think GWB campaign really does its best to use religion, for political advantage. That is one group they need, the religious right. If you just try to make believe it is not happening, you are just ignoring reality.

    I respond best to messages that promote religious tolerance, rather than religious intolerance regardless of the party. And sometimes it is easy to get the two mixed up, very easy.

    For example school prayers, there are many that would say, having school prayers is promoting religious tolerance, allowing students the right to pray in school. On the other hand, what about if you are a Muslim child? No Hadji, we are going to be reciting Christian prayers here, you go over into the corner of the room and do whatever you do, and we will let you know when you can join us again. Does that sound like religious tolerance? No! Can you envision a way of enacting school prayer that would not isolate those who practice minority religions? I can't and I see the benefits of school prayers outweighed by the potential of isolation and division of kids with differing beliefs. Sure I respect the views of people who differ with me on this, this is just my opinion here.

    The bottom line of my argument is that religion should not be ruled by the majority, it is ruled by our own personal faith.
    Last edited by cellmatrix; 09/12/2004 at 11:27 AM.
  16. #36  
    Moose, you really do haved a problem here. Hit the papers after the elections and read the results of the recounts. Plain as day. Did you also read the statement about his daddy? It's there Moose - do a search. Moose, about what he says and how he says it? Moose, you sure have not heard his speeches. He yells at the top of his lungs during his speeches. He is an embarassment. He has even gotten drunk Teddy to yell like him a few times. Moose, everything I have said (and that has been very little) is out there for you and everyone else to view. The man has a vivid temper and is very, very bitter. He lost and his statement about it being stolen are outright lies. He is the one who did not want the overseas military vote counted - not the republicans. He wanted to exclude the vote of others in Florida. Frankly, if you think he represents the majority of America and its values, you have a serious problem.

    I was a democrat until Clinton hit the White House. My values have not changed, Moose. Not one bit. The democratic party has changed. From being middle of the road to the far left. Gore, Kennedy, Kerry represent the far left. Look at the scumb that climed out of the trash can to protest at the republican national convention. The democrats were rooting for them - and to root for such scumb - not middle of the road America. These the democrats are pushing are the far fringe of humanity. You never saw anything at the Kerry Viet Nam War Party (the DNC) that the republican party claimed to support.

    Speaking of the Kerry Viet Nam War Party - that is what it was. Nothing of any substance was there. They never proposed anything for this country's future, what would be done. It was all react to the president and putting the face of Kerry up from 30 years ago. Kerry reporting for duty...What crap. Nothing more than crap.

    So Moose, before you tell me to provide the facts, take the time to look it up yourself. It is all there. Anything said enough times (and Kerry babbles all the time) takes the air of truth. Find the truth from Kerry -- it frankly is not there in substance.

    Ben
  17. #37  
    We are not mixing politics with religion. This country is a Christian country. It was founded on those values. It is the basis of this country. It is what we, the majority are. The majority believes in those values. The vocal minoritiy says we are not, the non-vocal majority does in its every day actions, its every day lifes. Every day this country lives its values - look at how much we give to the world and ask for nothing in return. We feed the world - and yes we do. We export so much and yep, we import so much also. When a disaster occurs elsewhere in the world - who is there to provide relief. The US. Who is not there to provide relief? Most of the rest of the world. When we provide relief, even to the "bad guys," we do not tie a lot to it. When Iran had their earth quake - who was there? The US. When we have our floods, when the World Trade Center was struck, when we have had earth quakes, where was Iran? Where was the rest of the world? Where was France?

    When Iran had its earthquake, Israel was ready and willing to respond. Iran said to the world, come help me, but we will not let Israel in. It is amazing.

    Bush speaks his values. I speak my values. I have no problems with them. I have no
    problem with anyone speaking their values.

    I missed the entry about school prayer. I grew up during that time period. Every school I was in had school prayer. We did not pray out loud. It was used as a moment of personal prayer. Nothing out loud. In my 5th grade class we had two kids, brother/sister, from Syria. They were both Islamic. They participated with their own moment of slient prayer. None of us degraded them. In my ninth grade home room we had a Hindu. Same thing. Prayer in school does not degrade non-christians. Everyone had the opportunity to pray as they wanted to. The kids from Syria knelt to the east. I did not kneel. I was curious and asked one time; after that, nothing said further. No one laughed, no one made fun of anyone. That moment gave us the opportunity to practice our faith. If we did not want to pray, we did not have to. No one had to stand. No one had to do anything. We had to remain quiet and respectful, and there is nothing wrong with that.

    When we did the Pledge of Alliegence, the Syrian children did not participate. They stood quietly while this was being done. The girl did tell me that in her country, everyone had to participate, regardless of faith or country of origin.

    This country does not mix its religion with its politics. It mixes its values with its politics. Not the same.

    Ben
    Last edited by bclinger; 09/12/2004 at 12:31 PM.
  18. #38  
    Ben, I'm on my Treo thus the short response. Read my posts in this thread. I have said that Gore's statement was foolish. Furthermore, I did NOT take a political side in this thread but was asking for tolerance. Finally, I HAVE read the history of the last elections but I wanted to hear your side. Again, instead of providing data you ask me to search for it. Al Gore lost the elections (via electoral votes), I have never argued otherwise! But also, 500,000 more voters have voted for Al Gore. That's hardly a "loser" candidate in my book.
    I have never let my schooling interfere with my education.
    -Mark Twain
  19. #39  
    Quote Originally Posted by bclinger
    We are not mixing politics with religion. This country is a Christian country. It was founded on those values. It is the basis of this country. It is what we, the majority are. The majority believes in those values. The vocal minoritiy says we are not, the non-vocal majority does in its every day actions, its every day lifes
    Ben, how can I argue with someone who has a Harley and who lives in Hawaii!

    I agree with you, Christian values are what I believe in too. But Christians do not hold a monopoly on moral values. Buddhists and Jewish people, Muslims all have teachings of good moral values. Maybe this is not what you are doing, but I think that sometimes people use the word values as a buzzword for religion. My own personal religious beliefs are best left with me, but one thing I believe is that Jesus set an example to us to be tolerant and love one another. What I am trying to say here and in the last post goes along with that belief.

    There is a wonderful example of how there was a small bastion of religious tolerance in Europe during the dark ages, even at the same time there were some of the worst religious wars of our times. It was in spanish Granada, which was controlled by Muslims at the time. It was an incredibly tolerant society, which attracted Christians, Jews, and other religions and promoted science and art to levels far beyond that of the rest of Europe. They were finally routed and the Spanish Inquisition finally took hold, but I think it just goes to shows when you respect other people for what they are, not for their religion, it can be a good thing for a society. Here is a purely historical, non-political link about this interesting part of histroy.

    http://www.xmission.com:8000/~dderha...oors.htm#three

    Our country was originally formed in large part by people who were victims of religious intolerance elsewhere, and that is an important part of our heritage too.

    So, sure Gore says things in a callous way sometimes, I do too for that matter, but I stand by my distaste of GWB's using religion for political advantage.
  20. #40  
    I agree that we do not have a hold on values and that others also have similar values. When Bush speaks and ok, he does use it to political advantage, at least he is consistent. Kerry is not consistent. He does not support abortion, but..... He voted for it before he voted against it. Bush has not done so.

    Consistency is the plus for Bush. I have yet to find a plus for Kerry other than he is consistent in not being consistent.

    You would think that motorcycles and Hawaii go hand-in-hand. Yep, so does the rain. A beautiful night last night for riding - but the rain ten minutes into it stopped that.

    Take care. Ben
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