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  1.    #1  
    Recently "found" memos document the details of Bush's suspension from flight status for refusing to show up for his physical exam.

    "On this date I ordered that 1st Lt. Bush be suspended from flight status due to failure to perform to USAF/TexANG standards and failure to meet annual physical examination ... as ordered," says an August 1, 1972 memo by Lt. Col. Jerry Killian, who is now dead" (GWB's superior officer in the National Guard)

    According to Col Killian's documentation, five days after he had failed to show up for his physical, Bush apparently was bold enough to ask for even more.... how he could get out of reporting for any duty at all from May until Novermber 1972. I guess if your father is an important political person, you can be bold like that.

    Finally, another released memo referred to a military official pushing to "sugar coat" Bush's evaluation.

    Read the article yourself:

    http://www.cnn.com/2004/ALLPOLITICS/....ap/index.html

    I am interested to hear the Republican talking points on this. I think they will try to say that this information was already out there, old news, not important...

    But clearly this is a simple case of someone trying to weasel out of their military service obligations, and then figuring that his rich and powerful daddy can fix things for him, so its no big deal, and then intentionally trying to cover up this understandably embarassing situation.

    Its this feeling of entitlement, like I can send other people to fight wars, but I don't have to go because I have a rich daddy, that is what irritates me about GWB.
    Last edited by cellmatrix; 09/09/2004 at 02:23 PM.
  2.    #2  
    btw here are the memos which were released.

    http://wid.ap.org/documents/bush/040908xfer.pdf
    Last edited by cellmatrix; 09/09/2004 at 12:32 PM.
  3. #3  
    More of the same old crap. Don't you get tired of this constant candidate bashing? Like it's really doing anything but wasting time.
    “There are four boxes to be used in defense of liberty: soap, ballot, jury, and ammo. Please use in that order.”
    — Ed Howdershelt
    "A government big enough to give you everything you want, is big enough to take away everything you have."- Thomas Jefferson
  4.    #4  
    well I really haven't been following lately, its been really hectic for me lately. Lot of bashing here in the forum? I'm not trying to stir up trouble, just thought the article was interesting and pointed (at least in my mind)to some of the reasons I don't like Bush.
  5. #5  
    Quite insightful cellmatrix
  6.    #6  
    Thanks, zackz
  7. #7  
    Quote Originally Posted by zackz
    Quite insightful cellmatrix

    Yes anything that is anti Bush is insightful, right zack?
    “There are four boxes to be used in defense of liberty: soap, ballot, jury, and ammo. Please use in that order.”
    — Ed Howdershelt
    "A government big enough to give you everything you want, is big enough to take away everything you have."- Thomas Jefferson
  8.    #8  
    So far, I saw Heberman post an obscure right wing news source that is trying to make an argument about the typing of the memos being suspicious, The typing thing, now that is pretty creative I must say. The problem is there are mainstream handwriting/document experts who verify the memos are legit.

    Scott McClellan, the Bush spokesman said this is a coordinated attack by Kerry. Yet it was the white house who released the memos. This is both lame and sad. I guess the Bush campaign thinks we are stupid or something?

    I think all of the talk about how the republicans are more patriotic and how they have more values and such, I think the chickens are coming home to roost now.

    Anyway, that is just my opinion.

    Quote Originally Posted by cellmatrix
    I'm not trying to stir up trouble
    OK maybe just a little

    have a nice day
    Last edited by cellmatrix; 09/09/2004 at 06:00 PM.
  9. #9  
    Jees... this tit-for-tat nonsense between Bush and Kerry is sooo damned nauseating!!!! Can't we have an option in the election to vote all these bastards out?!!
    Last edited by Gaurav; 09/09/2004 at 08:15 PM.
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  10.    #10  
    Chick-Dance, I am glad someone else also appreciates the irony
    Quote Originally Posted by cellmatrix
    I think the chickens are coming home to roost now.
    and gfunkmagic,
    Quote Originally Posted by gfunkmagic
    Jees... this tit-for-tat nonsense between Bush and Kerry is sooo damned nauseating!!!!
    would that I could single handedly improve the tone of the presidential campaign, it would be the least I could do to repay you for all of the valuable information you have contributed in this forum on the intricacies of the Treo 600.

    but I think you know the Kerry campaign did not concoct this meal, and if you are sick the person responsible would be our head chef, monsieur Karl Rove
    Last edited by cellmatrix; 09/10/2004 at 12:30 AM.
  11. #11  
    Quote Originally Posted by Chick-Dance
    Coming from you? I am floored!
    Well I am far more interested in bashing everyone who posts here, not the candidates. I thought that was evident. The mods sure have me figured out. (sarcasm for those that are blind to that stuff)

    Seriously though it's the same old stuff. Neither candidate is perfect. What it boils down to is your position, left or right. The left will hate whomever the right puts up and vice versa. So it's really pointless. No one will change their mind because of what is said here. This is all about slamming the messenger.

    Hell my post about this being a waste of time got me criticized in another thread for a comment I made there.
    http://discussion.treocentral.com/sh...ad.php?t=57529
    It's like because I said this was a waste I am not allowed to post anymore.

    Although it may not always seem that way, I respect other peoples opinions. I just like to ask questions to help me understand how they come to their opinion. Sometimes my questions come across sarcastic and many times they are because I am amazed that seemingly intelligent people can be so blind. But then I guess that works both ways, except of course most here dont seem to want to give me credit for being intelligent.
    “There are four boxes to be used in defense of liberty: soap, ballot, jury, and ammo. Please use in that order.”
    — Ed Howdershelt
    "A government big enough to give you everything you want, is big enough to take away everything you have."- Thomas Jefferson
  12. #12  
    Quote Originally Posted by cellmatrix
    and gfunkmagic,

    would that I could single handedly improve the tone of the presidential campaign, it would be the least I could do to repay you for all of the valuable information you have contributed in this forum on the intricacies of the Treo 600.

    but I think you know the Kerry campaign did not concoct this meal, and if you are sick the person responsible would be our head chef, monsieur Karl Rove
    Kerry campaign not responsible? LOL! Oh yeah I forgot, only the GOP does slash/attack campaigning. C'mon, both sides are slinging mud at each other, and neither side is innocent of slandering their opponent. Recall all the nonsense that Bush new about 9/11 and etc?! Yuk... And please, lets not devolve this thread into the "evil Karl Rove" soliloquy... I'm pretty sure some Republicans here would say the same thing about James Carville or Micheal Moore...
    _________________
    aka Gfunkmagic

    Current device: Palm Pre
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    Please don't PM me about my avatar. For more info go here.

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  13. #13  
    Both sides are guilty of slinging the mud; the democrats just seem to be more active for a longer period of time. Attack after attack and none of it of any important substance. Nothing in Bush's military time suggested an inability to tell more than one lie, and Bush has been more responsive in releasing his military records. None of this is new territory. Kerry though is a bit different. Few of those that served with him support him. In addition, he has told some mighty big tales that frankly have no support. Cambodia? the CIA agent? the wounds? this and that and worse of all, Kerry refuses to release his military records. He posts bits here and there on his website, but again, nothing of any substance.

    In addition, he speaks in double tongues. He says what he thinks you want to hear. He reacts, does not act. A leader? No, a talker with no goal. He says one thing, says another and gosh, contradicts himself all the time. I do not believe any of us have heard Bush contradict himself. He takes a stand and hangs in there.

    It is also amazing that the major news media ignored the swiftboat controversy for months. Since, what, April or May? and CBS News is on the Bush thing immediately. As for the experts that support the authenticty of the story, I did not read any names or organizations. CBS has made claims and has a responsibity to provide the source(s). I frankly find it difficult to believe that an officer is going to publically write one thing and then in a journal write something totally different. It just does not make sense.

    Also about the reports, having been a word processor user since the very early 70s, I also question the authenticity.

    Anyway, what we need to look at is the stands of those involved. Kerry has 30 years of public statements that are full of holes, contradictions, et cetera. From the beginning he gave aid to the enemy, sat with Hanoi Jane and got his picture hung up in a Hanoi museum. He admitted to wartime attrocities. If we have to suffer through the old stuff, then this needs to be addressed. Do we really want to have a criminal running our government? How did he keep himself from being prosecuted? Did he have someone behind him? Lots of words, nothing of substance. He is against abortion but supports partial birth abortion. Woman's life in jeapordy? How? Birth the child, there is no reason for an abortion. Hot air. Kerry has never supported the military. Voted against most everything. We want him to run our government? No. He wants us to get UN approval for everything. Did Clinton? Nope, not at all. Clinton had his wars and gosh, he dodged the draft. Amazing. Simply amazing. Look at the current events and forget the rest. Look at the public record of the two and ask yourself, which one takes a stand and which one takes two stands.

    Ben
  14. #14  
    It's been dubbed 'fontgate' - for those that have not heard, experts looking at the documents think that they were created using Microsoft Word.

    -Some links to the breaking news -
    -The evidence mounts -
    -A summary of the report which aired last night on Fox -
  15.    #15  
    Quote Originally Posted by gfunkmagic
    Kerry campaign not responsible? LOL! Oh yeah I forgot, only the GOP does slash/attack campaigning. C'mon, both sides are slinging mud at each other, and neither side is innocent of slandering their opponent. Recall all the nonsense that Bush new about 9/11 and etc?! Yuk... And please, lets not devolve this thread into the "evil Karl Rove" soliloquy... I'm pretty sure some Republicans here would say the same thing about James Carville or Micheal Moore...
    Well it was the white house who released the latest documents about Bush's service, so I doubt Kerry was behind that. Sure there are a lot of crazies out there on both sides who say stupid things, like Bush knew about 911. Personally, I feel that Bush should have been more on top of things in the time period prior to 911, listening to the memos he was given by the CIA, not off at his ranch on a long vacation, but Bush knowing about 911 going to happen, sure that is just crazy talk.

    Clearly, each side takes the really crazy stuff from the fringe elements on the other side, and tries to portray that this is the other side's mainstream message. It is a very transparent strategy, and both sides certainly do this. James Carville does it, just like his wife, Mary Madaline. Micheal Moore does it, Bill O'Reilly does it. Yeah, lets stop all of this I agree, it is not entertaining. And this is what is going on in this forum and elsewhere, there are lots of little James Carvilles and little Bill O'Reillys, running around. Very few of us are completely innocent of playing this game.

    The reason I bring up Karl Rove is that he has a long history of negative attack politics in all of the elections which he has handled. It is very clear from his interviews and writings that this is his forte, and what he believes wins elections. He has said that it is best to attack your opponent at his strengths, as the public already has doubts about the weaknesses. And I am sure that Kerry's campaign has people in it who specialize in this too.

    The thing is Karl Rove is right. Negative attack politics does win election. So gfunkmagic, you would have the Kerry campaign just continue to take the Swift boat depth charges with dignity, and not fight back, instead lose the campaign with honor? They should be allowed to defend themselves, I say.

    But I agree with you, it would be great to have elections based on debate of the important issues, and not to engage in senseless rhetorical sparring, like this forum has tendencies to degenerate into. But it is a two way street, a civil discussion is wasted when people don't listen and instead just continue to spew hyperbole and rhetoric. I don't know the answer, but I am willing to try to work towards a civil discussion here.
    Last edited by cellmatrix; 09/10/2004 at 11:29 AM.
  16. #16  
    Yeah, too bad the documents appear to be fakes.

    http://www.indcjournal.com/archives/000838.php
  17.    #17  
    Yes, I was just reading an article also which brings up this issue:

    http://story.news.yahoo.com/news?tmp...uard_questions

    Still it does not change my political views. And the thing that irritates me is that Bush, Cheney and Rumsfeld all did what they could to avoid going to Vietnam (even though they think it was a good idea for the poor folks who did have to go). But now, they don't have problems sending a new generation of kids out to a war which is just as wrong as Vietnam ever was. I know many of you feel different, but this is just my view.
    Last edited by cellmatrix; 09/10/2004 at 09:45 AM.
  18. #18  
    Quote Originally Posted by cellmatrix
    Still it does not change my political views. And the thing that irritates me is that Bush, Cheney and Rumsfeld all did what they could to avoid going to Vietnam (even though they think it was a good idea for the poor folks who did have to go). But now, they don't have problems sending a new generation of kids out to a war which is just as wrong as Vietnam ever was. I know many of you feel different, but this is just my view.
    I think the main difference would be that today we have a professional, volunteer army, people that chose this to be their career, and not the draftees of Viet Nam.
    Well behaved women rarely make history
  19. #19  
    cellmatrix, I agree with many of your comments. I think you should be allowed to post your opinion without others jumping in and saying "more of the same crap", etc.

    Woof, you posted a thread about Kerry and were pissed for getting flamed over that. Yet when cellmatrix posted a thead you came in and did the exact same thing. I guess if it happens to you then you should do it to others? It makes you no better than those that flamed you.

    As cellmatrix said, a civil discussion is always good, but stupid comments and personal attacks don't add anything to a debate and just show ignorance.
  20.    #20  
    Quote Originally Posted by clairegrrl
    I think the main difference would be that today we have a professional, volunteer army, people that chose this to be their career, and not the draftees of Viet Nam.
    yes, you bring up a good point clairegrrl. Its not right to think, well they volunteered, so we can have them do anything. No, we have an obligation to look out for the well being of our troops. I know you feel that way too.

    I just feel that the reasons we went to war with Iraq were wrong. I feel we had Sadaam contained, we had the world behind us, and we were putting the squeeze to him. I was content to be patient and continue to close his little box down further. I was not convinced about any threat to American lives at the time, I was skeptical of WMD, nuclear arms, or Iraq-al queda ties then and now I am convinced all of those were either incompetent errors of judgment or intentional distortions of the truth.

    I think that the costs of the war were undersold to us, it was billed as some type of cakewalk, were we would roll into Bagdad like the US rolled into Paris during WWII, throwing flowers, everyone loves us etc. This did not happen, I didn't think it would, the well intentioned British had an exceedingly difficult time occupying Iraq during the early 20th century, and why should it be better for us? I still don't understand.

    I think this rosy scenario about the outcome of the war is one factor that led to a lack of anticipation of a worst case scenario, this is a vital aspect of military planning, and now I feel like we are flailing around out there, losing lives and not making much progress.

    I volunteered for the army myself, I was an enlisted medic, and I served on an infantry base for most of my three years of active duty. Now, I work with veterans as a VA doctor. I love veterans, I love our troops. I don't want them to die for something that was not right in the first place or at best, poorly thought out. I think our troops deserve better.

    In conclusion, I am not trying to incite anyone, I just feel a little better being able to get these issues off my chest. I know many of you disagree with me, and I respect your right to have your own opinions.
    Last edited by cellmatrix; 09/10/2004 at 12:57 PM.
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