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  1. #81  
    Quote Originally Posted by mrjoec
    The problem I had with holding the convention in NYC was that it was an obvious ploy to get people back into the emotional state they were in during the 9/11 crisis—the height of Bush's approval rating. Brilliant move, admittedly, but in poor taste, in my opinion.
    If the defining point in Kerry's life is his four months on Viet Nam over thirty-five years ago, why isnt 9/11 just as an important part of the Bush presidency?
    Well behaved women rarely make history
  2. #82  
    Quote Originally Posted by clairegrrl
    If the defining point in Kerry's life is his four months on Viet Nam over thirty-five years ago, why isnt 9/11 just as an important part of the Bush presidency?
    I don't understand this point? Are you implying the DNC was held in Viet Nam?
  3. #83  
    Quote Originally Posted by 03Range
    You still never really answered the question. Do you really feel that if Kerry got elected, the U.S. would be a SAFER more SECURE place than if GWB was calling the shots?
    I used to consider myself a Democrat, but that party has become increasingly conservative in the past decade. I dislike Kerry because I often have a hard time seeing much difference between his policies and those of the Republicans.

    However, I do think the US would be safer with him as president (although the "safety"* of the US is not the most important issue to me). Why? Terrorists** are like hackers***: There will always be some who slip through the cracks, and it only takes 1 to do a whole lot of damage. No amount of improved security will ever eliminate the problem 100%. It's impossible to wage a war against an ideal. It's even harder when the very fact of the war fuels those who follow the ideal. I believe that the war in Iraq will foster hatred towards the US, which will increase the number of people who want to attack the US, which will hurt the "safety" of the US.

    I've read a lot of conservative/republican statements that come across as very isolationist, nationalist, and militant. I believe that GWB holds much of those same sentiments. I also believe that those sentiments will ultimately lead to more fear, death, and loss of liberty.

    Ultimately, it's kind of a moot point; we'll never know where the path not taken would have lead us. But we can see how we got where we are today, and change where we're headed.

    Nareau

    *"safety" of the US: By this I am referring to terrorist attacks on US soil
    **terrorists: militant groups with no specific national affiliation or structured military whose goal is to destabilize other economies, governments, etc. through attacks against non-military targets.
    ***hackers: I really mean crackers and virus programmers, but I'm using the colloquial for easier understanding.
  4. mrjoec's Avatar
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    #84  
    Quote Originally Posted by Tribalenvy
    I don't understand this point? Are you implying the DNC was held in Viet Nam?

    Nice one.
    mrjoec
    www.joecieplinski.com
  5. #85  
    Quote Originally Posted by Tribalenvy
    I don't understand this point? Are you implying the DNC was held in Viet Nam?

    You are just so silly. Joeboy felt that the references to 9/11 by the RNC were in poor taste.
    Well behaved women rarely make history
  6. #86  
    Quote Originally Posted by clairegrrl
    You are just so silly. Joeboy felt that the references to 9/11 by the RNC were in poor taste.
    Perhaps I am a silly girl It's just that mentioning Kerry and what one thinks was his 'defining moment' clouded the point being made. It was in reference to choice of location, and we all know Kerry never chose Viet Nam for the DNC, nor was it held there.

    I agree with mrjoec in that the location was chosen to envoke certain emotions. Perhaps it was chosen for other reasons as well, but this stands out. Look at How Bush began his speech after all. I agree it was a smart move, though I'd rather have seen a focus on the future, and let the past speak for itself. Bush did touch on many issues he plans to address for a better country, including health care, education, and working wages. I really wish he would have included his plan on how to pay for all this ...especially with an unheard of deficit. Otherwise, it's a bit like the old pie in the sky promise them anything routine. Still, I think it is wise for any polititian to focus on the future, and improving the state of affairs within our country. I really hope both canditates will focus on their plans for our country, how they plan to pay for it, and give all Americans a sense of vision. I'd like to think that's their job. Our job is to hold them accountable for it
  7. #87  
    Quote Originally Posted by Chick-Dance
    President Bush being in office and 9/11 as a single-event were a freaky coincident. I hardly see a point for the president to make 9/11 a part of his reelection theme. The lives of the people who perished on September 11, 2001, should not become playing cards in a political maneuvering and conniving thinking. Gosh, why can’t a horrible event such as 9/11 be sacred and apolitical? An event we can mourn without politicians telling us they have a monopoly on it? Does president Bush have a cartel on my tears too?

    Very nicely put, Chick-Dance. I remember the days following the events of 9/11 as I'm sure we all do. People lining up to donate blood and doing anything they could. It was a momentary wake up call ...as if people realized for a moment what was important, and began to care for their fellow man. It's too bad it takes a tragedy to bring that out in people.
  8. #88  
    Quote Originally Posted by clairegrrl
    Joeboy felt that the references to 9/11 by the RNC were in poor taste.
    Not the references. He was saying that it was in poor taste to actually show up here in order to gain advantage from the fact that a very large number of people died here.

    In some ways, this makes sense (perhaps New Yorkers would have preferred to keep a lower profile) but in other ways it doesn't matter (New York city is going to have a difficult time keeping a low profile even without a huge political gathering taking place here). As well, some people would say that it's a statement of solidarity: we're so safe here that one of our two main political parties can hold its largest gathering in this city and be free from attacks. (Well, free from attacks by people with bombs and stuff -- New York is always going to be a place where people tell you what they think, and those thoughts are probably going to be expressend rather aggressively.)

    An interesting thing happened recently in New York -- Delta Airlines (I'm pretty sure it was Delta) got permission from the FAA to fly an antique airplane in a very low flight path over New York city as a celebration of the airlines 100th anniversary (or something like that, anyway). Basically, they were going to fly a plane over Manhattan to the the Statue of Liberty, and the plane was going to be low enough in the sky that you could see it coming. In some ways, this seems like a fairly insensitive thing to do in a city that quite reasonably might have concerns about low-flying aircraft. On the other hand, and I'll express this idea colloquially, who gives a ****?

    In the end, though, the motivation for New York city in all this is that hosting the Republican Nation Convention has been a good test to prove that the city is up to the task of hosting the Olympics, which is one of Mayor Bloomberg's pet projects. While the RNC has been, most likely, a money losing proposition for the city, the good behavior of the NYPD (relatively speaking) is theoretically a big win for ...well, something else entirely.

    Which, overall, is even more disengenuous than the Repulicans, who were simply trying to gain advantage and make a point by meeting on the site of 9/11 (or in the same city, anyway). New Yorkers are flat out selling our city on that distinction.

    Anyone wanna buy a bridge?
  9. #89  
    Quote Originally Posted by Chick-Dance
    (But I enjoyed reading your post, nevertheless.)
    Yeah, more of us are buying than selling. Well, we're renting, anyway.


    Quote Originally Posted by Chick-Dance
    (But I enjoyed reading your post, nevertheless.)
    Thanks!
  10. #90  
    Quote Originally Posted by KRamsauer
    Everyone I work with lives in New York. They are out of town because a) late August is traditional vacation time for the financial services industry (which is a huge chunk of NY's economy) and b) there are a lot of people coming to town and there will be a lot of disruptions. I've heard no one say they were afraid.

    OMG!!!!


    That was funny as hell!! Zell Miller is right though, Chris Mathews is just a slimy little former democratic operative. He worked on several democratic politicians in the past including a stint as a former speechwriter for President Jimmy Carter and top aide to House Speaker Tip O'Neill and he it totally biased if not one of the most biased talking heads on TV (in addition to you know you )...

    Anyway, the exchange was absolutely classic. Zell Miller is a hard core old southern Dixiecrat who won't take crap from anybody, especially a former democratic operative who didn't know what he was getting into! Anway here's a link to where you can see the whole video!!

    http://webpages.charter.net/gline/ze...his-090204.wmv

    And commentary:

    http://www.washingtondispatch.com/pa...es/000537.html
    Last edited by Gaurav; 09/03/2004 at 03:55 PM.
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  11. #91  
    I remember Chris Matthew in tears, literally, after listening to Al Gore's concession speech. He was really affected by Gore's concession.
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  12.    #92  
    to all those who think we oversimplify the reasons for crises in the world today - ( clulup) I highly recommend you read " deliver us from evil" by hannity.
    this book truly encompasses all the reasons we believe the way we do - as republicans. now many might say, well I don't want to read that trash - I hate hannity or I hate anything republican.. well then if you take that route, you'll never understand our stance and you'll continue insisting we simplify our issues in the world.
    read this book. see if you don't think a bit differently after doing so - it will be interesting to hear your responses.
  13. #93  
    Quote Originally Posted by heberman
    Please, don't take us back to the "Gore really won" lame arguments. Get over it. Bush is President, not Gore.
    Thank God for that...
  14. #94  
    Quote Originally Posted by treobk214
    to all those who think we oversimplify the reasons for crises in the world today - ( clulup) I highly recommend you read " deliver us from evil" by hannity.
    this book truly encompasses all the reasons we believe the way we do - as republicans. now many might say, well I don't want to read that trash - I hate hannity or I hate anything republican.. well then if you take that route, you'll never understand our stance and you'll continue insisting we simplify our issues in the world.
    read this book. see if you don't think a bit differently after doing so - it will be interesting to hear your responses.
    He he he. This is coming from the guy who rejected my suggestion that he check out another point of view, flat out.
    This is what he said on page 2 of this thread, regarding my suggestion that people check out Franken's hilarious book or see Fahrenheit 9/11:

    " oh yeah... wake up and believe the true lies!
    go out and see the product of a disingenuous film maker who would have you believe that iraq was an oasis of peace during saddam's reign."

    Just one question for him: Did you actually SEE the film?
    You can tell by his response that he didn't. On principle, he refused to go see it. Right Treobk214? But you want us to read Hannity, right?

    I don't blame you for your hypocrisy; you have been obviously feeding on some pretty serious conservative propaganda without a willingness to pop-up and look around a little. Don't worry, you are not the only one; you have a LOT of company. And, you know, the conservatives in power are stubborn to a fault, as well. On principle they won't consider change of course unless they are forced to. And they can't admit their errors. Well, unlike you and I, our top government must be held to a higher standard!

    I met this cute French chick once, and she said that they have an expression "Only an ***** is never capable of changing their mind". Hmmm.

    Well, anyway, here are my top reasons, in no particular order, why this Bush team must go. Think about it:
    1. 9/11 committee showed that they froze when warned about Al Qaeda by the CIA director, over one month in advance. They apparently were preoccupied in planning for Iraq. The memo from the CIA director was called "Bin Laden Determined to Strike in the US", and it discussed the hijack of airplanes.
    Check it out: http://www.cnn.com/2004/ALLPOLITICS/04/10/august6.memo/
    2. They don't know how to get along with others or to build coalitions, with countries who used to be our allies.
    3. They lied to the nation (and our former allies), in order to get our cash (congressional approval) to go to Iraq.
    4. Halliburton = accounting fraud, pentagon scandal, and cash for friends and probably Cheney himself. (Halliburton currently has a multi-billion dollar non-compete contract with the Army)
    5. They destroyed the current account, to give cash to themselves and friends, passing the debt on to future generations. (Halliburton, for example, is paid with tax dollars)
    6. Their destruction of the current account has been, and will continue to be a drag on the economy. (Budget deficit helps inflation, lowers dollar value, impedes necessary foreign investment in the US, etc...)
    7. They are assuring we fall behind other countries in biotechnology.
    8. They will probably re-instate the draft to support Iraq operations, and their next war.
    9. Their strategy to win elections is to feed mis-information about the opposition by using the media, which they control. (Wealth=investors=shareholders in major media companies, which is why Bush stands such a good chance)

    Well, I am one patriotic, New York Republican which is disgusted with the direction of this self-serving team!

    And for the record, I don't think Treobk214 or anyone else on this thread is a bad gal or guy at all. They just already made up their minds and are seeing things though "tinted glasses", like most of us, I guess.
    And I wouldn't hesitate to help them out elsewhere in the threads, if I can.
  15.    #95  
    I have read views from the other side in attempts to gain a balanced perspective of today's current events. I don't limit myself to one view alone.
    but after reading both sides of the story, I find myself tending to trust more of what is stated on the republican side of the coin.
    believe me, I am not interested in blindly believing what one side says before looking into how another party views it. however, I honestly do trust what the republicans are saying right now over the opposition.
  16.    #96  
    by the way YES I DID SEE FAHRENHEIT 911!!!!!!!! why do you insist that I haven't! what do you need me to say to convince you of that? the mother of a son in the military who was for the war before her son's killing, then opposed it after his death? the scenes going black when the jets hit the towers. michael moorer going around petitioning members of the senate to send their own sons to the war since they voted on it..... why do you swiftly assume no one considers your side of things as well. that's narrow-minded and it underestimates everyone. I don't think you're a bad guy either, but I would hope you'd give your peers here a little more credit before making such assumptions. that was a little presumptuous.
  17.    #97  
    you don't blame me for my hypocrisy? oh why thankyou, except I don't consider myself a hypocrite. he he he.
    many of the faults you are speaking about are very glaringly shared by those of your own party, my friend. t0
  18.    #98  
    just because someone still disagrees with your view after listening to an account presented by your side doesn't mean they are hypocrits. let's not get ridiculous here. making such statements is quite silly.
  19.    #99  
    only an ***** never changes his mind, " ok. john kerry has changed his mind so often, do YOU think you know what he's going to do if he's in office. look at his voting record. I mean, its one thing to reconsider your decisions. but its another to behave like a weathermane over the course of twenty years!!!! im very sorry. john kerry does NOT reassure you that he will be a strong, consistent fighter or advocate for anything! why doesn't he release those medical records, my friend?
    wouldn't he save himself a lot of trouble here? you can continue calling me a hypocrite if you want. its your perogative. but I won't support a guy who doesn't have the courage of conviction.
  20.    #100  
    also, what do you think about all of our unanswered attacks occurring at the wtc and the uss cole while under clinton's watch?
    do you think anything our govt did at that time was successful in thwarting future attacks, or discouraged terrorists? or strengthened security knowing bin laden was plotting? will you accuse the bush admisnistration of the same inabilities of the clinton administration?
    iraq - again - several times I've been over this. saddam could have allowed total access to his country to thwart any invasion into his country. remember all those invaluable "UN" resolutions he ignored? what kind of international leadership were we heading while giving such a madman pardons, upon pardons, extensions upon extensions?
    was that international togetherness really all that effective in your discriminating opinion.
    . saddam was the fool who gave us no choice but to invade. you seem to forget that, conveniently. so again, you can dig in all you want. I just don't see how a kerry administration will inspire the view of strength or wisdom from the collective minds of our worldwide neighbors.
    Last edited by treobk214; 09/07/2004 at 02:00 PM.

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