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  1.    #21  
    oh yeah... wake up and believe the true lies!
    go out and see the product of a disingenuous film maker who would have you believe that iraq was an oasis of peace during saddam's reign.
    oh yes, folks. go out and see how it is the repubs who are telling all the lies. I guess that democrat zell miller just went out and spoke his mind just for fun, right? and that someone wrote all those lies in for him to reveal. oh yeah, ill buy that one, for sure.
    its amazing how it just doesn't register with some folks. rather not deal with reality, staying asleep in the world is much better.
  2. #22  
    Quote Originally Posted by treobk214
    there must be a pretty good reason why a democrat who is remaining democrat had made such severe statements against kerry.
    That's a very reasonable assumption.
  3. #23  
    Quote Originally Posted by treobk214
    wow. if you watched how senator miller, who recently converted from democrat to republican, you're probably thinking twice about voting for kerry. he makes you feel that the ted kennedy's and kerry's of the democratic party are anti- americans, and I salute this man for telling it like it really is. way to go, senator miller!!!!
    I am surpirsed by how easily you confuse party propaganda with information. This may explain why you come to strange conclusions about the world around you.
    “Reality is that which, when you stop believing in it, doesn't go away.” (Philip K. ****)
  4. #24  
    I have one serious honest question for the Dems on this thread and I hope to get serious honest answers. Here goes:

    Given Sen. Kerry's 19-year senate voting record, complete with all the votes against some of our military's most effective weapon systems, would you honestly feel safer and more secure with him as commander-in-chief over G.W. Bush?

    I look forward to your answers.
  5. #25  
    Did you see Chris Matthews' interview with Miller about 15 minutes after Cheney's speech? Matthews was talking over Miller every time Miller tried to answer. Zell became so angry he was fighting back against Matthews and even wanted to challenge him to a duel!

    I was laughing so hard my eyes were watering.
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    #26  
    Quote Originally Posted by 03Range
    I have one serious honest question for the Dems on this thread and I hope to get serious honest answers. Here goes:

    Given Sen. Kerry's 19-year senate voting record, complete with all the votes against some of our military's most effective weapon systems, would you honestly feel safer and more secure with him as commander-in-chief over G.W. Bush?

    I look forward to your answers.
    Not to mention his need to get approval from the UN and other foreign countries before acting in our nation's best interests.
  7. #27  
    Quote Originally Posted by heberman
    Did you see Chris Matthews' interview with Miller about 15 minutes after Cheney's speech? Matthews was talking over Miller every time Miller tried to answer. Zell became so angry he was fighting back against Matthews and even wanted to challenge him to a duel!

    I was laughing so hard my eyes were watering.
    Seriously? I find Chris Matthews hilarious in general. The spoofs on SNL are some of the funniest things I've seen as well. I wish I could get to a recording of that!
  8. #28  
    i come to this discussion group to talk about my beloved treo and now i am pulled into this thread by a few republicans that are believing all the propagander being said it is all bs. The republicans are not going to put on a speaker during prime time who has anything nice to say about Kerry. Lets here **** Clark speak he worked for the President.Remember someone said Bush had the majority of vote if i remember correctly if it wasnt for bad counts in Fla. Gore would be president and we would not be in this mess
  9. #29  
    Quote Originally Posted by fkpalm
    The republicans are not going to put on a speaker during prime time who has anything nice to say about Kerry. Lets here **** Clark speak he worked for the President.
    Of course, it is the REPUBLICAN national convention. Duh. I didn't see the dems asking Bush supporters to speak during the DNC.

    Remember someone said Bush had the majority of vote if i remember correctly if it wasnt for bad counts in Fla. Gore would be president and we would not be in this mess
    Please, don't take us back to the "Gore really won" lame arguments. Get over it. Bush is President, not Gore.
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  10.    #30  
    clulup ( spelling correctly, right?)
    what seems strange to you may just be what you just don't want to hear, so you oppose it.
    why doesn't switzerland take a stand, clulup, if you guys have all the answers? do you ever get bored and tired of just talking, never doing anything?
    speaking as a know it all from a position of total neutrality is kind of like an annoying little pest.
    spewing forth all opinions and not being able to see any of it acted upon must be pretty frustrating I would imagine.
    oh well, we think your position in the world is pretty strange, just standing by during times like these is almost like just waiting for them to come get ya. in my view, clulup, THAT is what's strange.
  11. mrjoec's Avatar
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    #31  
    Quote Originally Posted by 03Range
    I have one serious honest question for the Dems on this thread and I hope to get serious honest answers. Here goes:

    Given Sen. Kerry's 19-year senate voting record, complete with all the votes against some of our military's most effective weapon systems, would you honestly feel safer and more secure with him as commander-in-chief over G.W. Bush?

    I look forward to your answers.
    I'm not a DEM, but I'll try a brief answer.

    In 1990, Vice President Cheney recommended the discontinuation of many of the same weapons systems that Kerry voted against. Including the Apache helicopters, the b2, etc.

    John McCain voted against many of the same bills that Kerry did as well. The reasons he gave? The bills were filled with "pork." When bills first get presented, they always contain extra spending that isn't necessary, and a senator with any sense of how the system works knows that sometimes you need to refuse a bill a few times before the "fat" is cut from it. Otherwise, we'd have a lot more corporations with millions more of our tax dollars in their pockets.

    This is a very old political game. Rag on the candidate for his supposed voting record. It's always misleading. Without exception. Whether Dem or Rep. It's a cheap ploy to convince lazy people who don't bother to get the facts. And it works every time.

    Sad, how low politicians' opinions are of us.
    mrjoec
    www.joecieplinski.com
  12. #32  
    You _do_ know what we call Zell here in Georgia, don't you? "Zig-Zag Zell" He's so well known for altering his position that the name was his years ago when he was our Governor.

    Many Georgia democrats are wondering why Zell is still a democrat and would not consider him a 'true member' of the fold. In truth, he is an old 'Dixiecrat'. For real interesting reading, follow Zell's career and try and figure when he was a liberal/conservative, racist/civil-rights, etc.

    I don't really care what he calls himself. I think it just goes to show how limiting these two political parties have become.
  13. #33  
    Miller strikes me as similar to that Vt senator that left the GOP a few years ago, sending the senate to 50 republicans. I think a lot of what he is doing is for attention.
  14.    #34  
    cheney voted against apache helicopters... why? take a look how many of them go down In iraq. do you think that may have had an effect on that vote? if something's not working amd people are dying using it, vote it vote against the apache so we can 4
  15.    #35  
    .....vote against the apache so we can replace it with a better, safer, more battle-capable model. THAT makes sense.
  16. #36  
    Quote Originally Posted by mrjoec
    I'm not a DEM, but I'll try a brief answer.

    In 1990, Vice President Cheney recommended the discontinuation of many of the same weapons systems that Kerry voted against. Including the Apache helicopters, the b2, etc.

    John McCain voted against many of the same bills that Kerry did as well. The reasons he gave? The bills were filled with "pork." When bills first get presented, they always contain extra spending that isn't necessary, and a senator with any sense of how the system works knows that sometimes you need to refuse a bill a few times before the "fat" is cut from it. Otherwise, we'd have a lot more corporations with millions more of our tax dollars in their pockets.

    This is a very old political game. Rag on the candidate for his supposed voting record. It's always misleading. Without exception. Whether Dem or Rep. It's a cheap ploy to convince lazy people who don't bother to get the facts. And it works every time.

    Sad, how low politicians' opinions are of us.
    You still never really answered the question. Do you really feel that if Kerry got elected, the U.S. would be a SAFER more SECURE place than if GWB was calling the shots? Sure Cheney may have struck down the Apache helicopter initiative, there are always exceptions to the rule. But surely you would agree a 19-year senate voting record that consistently has Kerry on the wrong side of history i.e. voting against the Persian Gulf War, is something that cant be ignored. Surely you can see past your own partisanship to concede this point...
  17. mrjoec's Avatar
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    #37  
    Okay. So if Kerry votes against something, you don't care why, but if Cheney (who was defense secretary, by the way, so he wasn't voting for or against anything) defunds the same thing, then the reasons why make all the difference?

    Miller made a fool of himself last night, and, as far as I'm concerned, embarrassed the Republicans. I'm confused as to why the organizers of the convention thought it wise to let such a lunatic speak for them. If I were on the fence, I wouldn't want to come down on the same side as a racist, irrational, dixiecrat who can't even contain his own anger when someone challenges one of his speaking points. I think they just thought it was cool that they had a democrat who was willing to discredit Kerry, and they didn't think it through enough to realize how nutty the guy really is.

    At least Cheney, while occasionally pulling his points out of fantasy land (Bush is making health care more affordable?) had a mostly positive message. And he projects a certain level of strength and consistency.
    mrjoec
    www.joecieplinski.com
  18. mrjoec's Avatar
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    #38  
    Quote Originally Posted by 03Range
    You still never really answered the question. Do you really feel that if Kerry got elected, the U.S. would be a SAFER more SECURE place than if GWB was calling the shots? Sure Cheney may have struck down the Apache helicopter initiative, there are always exceptions to the rule. But surely you would agree a 19-year senate voting record that consistently has Kerry on the wrong side of history i.e. voting against the Persian Gulf War, is something that cant be ignored. Surely you can see past your own partisanship to concede this point...
    I wonder who is being the partisan here. As I mentioned before, I'm not a Democrat.

    Exceptions to the rule? So we forgive the guys on our side, but condemn everyone on their side? Republicans get the benefit of the doubt, but Democrats don't? Sounds pretty partisan to me.

    Every one of the programs that Miller mentioned were either items that Cheney himself defunded, or that Kerry himself later voted FOR, once the pork was cut out. Every single one of them. Thus, everything Miller said in that portion of his speech was completely invalid.

    Anyway, to answer your question more directly, yes, I do believe the U.S. would become safer and more secure if Kerry were to be elected. Not by a tremendous margin, but at least somewhat.

    Do you honestly believe that we are any safer and more secure than we were four years ago?

    Voting records mean nothing if you don't consider who is handing them to you. They can be skewed to make anyone look bad. I thought I made that point, earlier, but I guess I didn't. I would never use what any democrat said about a republican's voting record as a reason to vote against him, any more than I would vice versa. It's all propaganda. "Kerry voted against the Persian Gulf War" sounds pretty incriminating, but did you bother to read the actual bill that he voted against? Did you investigate why he voted against it?

    You do know it's possible to believe in a cause but vote against a bill that supports that cause (because there are a hundred other things in the bill that you don't believe in)?
    mrjoec
    www.joecieplinski.com
  19. #39  
    What I know is that seeing thousands of protesters showing up for the RNC sends a pretty powerful message. Same deal with the incredible number of worldwide protests of the invasion of Iraq.
  20.    #40  
    syria now found to be responsible for patronage of hostages - latest news! gee. and some of us thought these countries were no threat to us! hmmm... fathom that.
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