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  1.    #141  
    what's even more ironic, is that a registered democrat is saying this! wow! now that's funny!
  2. #142  
    Quote Originally Posted by treobk214
    many saying why have a president who can't make a decision without other countries giving him the green light to do so.
    he has no real platform
    So what you want is a president who doesn't feel the need to be held accountable by the international community, only the people who cast votes? Surely the role of an international leader is to lead the international community and that is part of the job of US president? Not all of it, I realise that, but a significant part. If your president is to lead international opinion then it follows that he would need to listen to it as well, don't you think?
    Animo et Fide
  3. #143  
    Quote Originally Posted by PeterBrown
    So what you want is a president who doesn't feel the need to be held accountable by the international community, only the people who cast votes?
    The President should feel accountable to Americans only, not to the "international community". Here in the U.S., there is a huge amount of resistence to the mere thought of being controlled by any foreign body, "international community", or (especially) the U.N., as we feel that many of these groups have values different than our own. That's why it is hard to find U.S. troups, even when serving as part of United Nations coalition forces, every under the direct control of a General from a different country.

    Surely the role of an international leader is to lead the international community and that is part of the job of US president? Not all of it, I realise that, but a significant part. If your president is to lead international opinion then it follows that he would need to listen to it as well, don't you think?
    Sure the President can listen to interantional opinion, but true leadership is not following the world's biggest polling group or cow-towing to foreign public opinion. Leadership is deciding the best course of action for the country, and then persauding others to support you in that course of action.
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  4.    #144  
    exactly my sentiments, heberman.
  5. #145  
    Quote Originally Posted by heberman
    The President should feel accountable to Americans only, not to the "international community". Here in the U.S., there is a huge amount of resistence to the mere thought of being controlled by any foreign body, "international community", or (especially) the U.N., as we feel that many of these groups have values different than our own. That's why it is hard to find U.S. troups, even when serving as part of United Nations coalition forces, every under the direct control of a General from a different country.

    Sure the President can listen to interantional opinion, but true leadership is not following the world's biggest polling group or cow-towing to foreign public opinion. Leadership is deciding the best course of action for the country, and then persauding others to support you in that course of action.
    It's the lack of persuasion from 'W' I have a problem with. And the willingness to act before that persuasion has been performed.
    and it's "kowtowing", ahem.
    Last edited by PeterBrown; 09/07/2004 at 11:38 AM. Reason: I felt like it :p
    Animo et Fide
  6. #146  
    Quote Originally Posted by PeterBrown
    and it's "kowtowing", ahem.
    Oops. I learn something new every day. I'll have to look up that word on the Oxford English Dictionary.
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  7. #147  
    Quote Originally Posted by heberman
    Oops. I learn something new every day. I'll have to look up that word on the Oxford English Dictionary.
    From the Chinese "ke tou" meaning to strike one's head (on the floor) according to Chambers 21st Century Dictionary
    Animo et Fide
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    #148  
    Quote Originally Posted by PeterBrown
    So what you want is a president who doesn't feel the need to be held accountable by the international community, only the people who cast votes?
    Yes.
  9. #149  
    No kidding, it's not like he's your president.
    “There are four boxes to be used in defense of liberty: soap, ballot, jury, and ammo. Please use in that order.”
    — Ed Howdershelt
    "A government big enough to give you everything you want, is big enough to take away everything you have."- Thomas Jefferson
  10. #150  
    Welcome back Woof...we've all missed you
    Well behaved women rarely make history
  11.    #151  
    its one thing to collaborate with other countries on proper approaches to world crises, but its another to be a puppet to them. to allow others to direct your actions to suit their purposes, makes you a malleable leader, not a strong, independent figure.
    the real worry here is that kerry would be so worried about hurting anyones feelings overseas that he would bow to any and all demands made by them, just to keep relations, even if it means compromising his own country's very security! that he would let other nations tell him how to do his job, rather than rely on his own convictions.
    its important to keep foreign relations strong. but if your neighbors begin to see you lack the self-determination, than where will that leave us in the grand scheme of things? better a decisive leadership than a wavering one.
  12. #152  
    Quote Originally Posted by treobk214
    its one thing to collaborate with other countries on proper approaches to world crises, but its another to be a puppet to them.
    Neither failing is an option. Neither.

    Yes, if Kerry turns out to be a weak president who panders too much to the needs of individual allies (say, Israel, for example) then he would be a failure as a leader. On the other hand, if he turns out to be unable to work with other world leaders and only presents our enemies with a strong front (say, post-Hussien Iraq), then he'd be just as much of a failure. Our president is going to have to do both of these things in order to be a success. Also, there might be one or two other things he'll have to do. Who knows?

    Interestingly, what we're really talking about here is that the president has to make people believe he is doing these things. It actually doesn't matter too much whether he's really doing the work or not (in the long run, it certainly will), but it is our perception and, to an extent that is significant but different, the perception of people around the world that will matter. It's a tricky, tricky job. A tricky job.
  13.    #153  
    I completely agree in that its one helluva dance you have to do in that office. no question.
  14. #154  
    I want to respond to Heberman's attacks on my previous message.

    Quote Originally Posted by heberman
    That's called having faith and having convictions.
    That's the same type of faith and conviction that the terrorists have. You can't be blinded by "faith" and not try to think for yourself.

    Quote Originally Posted by heberman
    France and Germany don't constitute the "majority of the opinions of the world. Also, since when is the US President supposed to act in accordance with opinions of foreign governments?
    In the '92 Iraq war we had a coaliation. This time we had almost nobody except the most diehard American ally countries. It wasn't just France and Germany opposing it. It was basically the whole world other than britain, and australia. Yes saddam should have been removed, but all in due time. Our concerns should have been with osama and n. korea.

    Quote Originally Posted by heberman
    You got that right. How many post-9/11 attacks have taken place on US soil? The terrorists are truly looking over their backs at us now.
    The rest of the world is afraid of us. I agree that to make other countries have reasonable fear of the u.s. is a good thing. Keeps people in check, but we don't want other nations to think that we are attacking other countries under false pretenses (Bush: We have evidence of WMDs!). I would rather have him say, "my dad made a mistake in '92.. . we need to remove saddam". Also, if you haven't noticed we live on Earth and we share it with everyone else. So, yes it matters what others think of us. No, we shouldnt' make our decisions based solely upon what others might think of us. There needs to be a balance. Bush is extreme.



    Quote Originally Posted by heberman

    Yes it was - just ask Putin and many intelligence agencies around the world.
    I'm sure if they thought saddam had wmds left they would have wholeheartedly supported the invasion. The intelligence that was coming in was sketchy at best and most of the other countries wanted to hold off on an invasion until further investigation.

    Quote Originally Posted by heberman

    Osama is much less a threat now than he was then, because of the US's actions. North Korea has the nukes. What is your solution, ask them really, really, nice to give the nukes up?


    Why not? It worked with Lybia. It worked with the Soviet Union. You have a short memory. What do you suggest we should do with the oppressive North Korean dictators? Give them some cake and ice cream? Yeah, they'll like us then.

    You seem to think that if just act REALLY nice to everyone, then the bad guys will just go away. That's delusional thinking. Just ask pre-WWII France, or Poland, or USS Arizona sailors still at the bottom of Pearl Harbor.
    I mentioned that we overextended our troops in Iraq. Which was a mistake since we had faulty intelligence (overexaggerated by bush). N. Korea obviously felt much more freedom knowing that the u.s. army is busy in other areas. So when they started processing the nuclear rods, the u.s. didn't have enough force to respond. That's mistake #1.

    By telling a country they are evil, you are telling them they are less than human. There is no diplomatic solution. Do you expect them to give up their nuclear weapons? The N. Korean issue is very sensitive and we do not need to complicate matters by schoolyard name calling by bush. N. korea has over 1 million troops and nuclear weapons. Do you actually think the u.s. will be able to run them over like in Iraq? N. Korea isn't going to crumble like the Soviet Union. It's a much smaller country ruled with a much stronger dictator. They have an ally in China which won't let them completely starve.
  15. #155  
    Quote Originally Posted by Lakers0340
    ...In the '92 Iraq war we had a coaliation. This time we had almost nobody except the most diehard American ally countries....
    Ya 45 countries is almost nobody. We've been down this road before but I'll ask anyway. What would be an exceptable number for you to call it a coalition?

    Websters doesnt name a numeric requirment in their definition.

    1. An alliance, especially a temporary one, of people, factions, parties, or nations.
    2. A combination into one body; a union.


    So by definition we again had a coalition. Oh and it was 91, January 17th if you want to be picky.
    “There are four boxes to be used in defense of liberty: soap, ballot, jury, and ammo. Please use in that order.”
    — Ed Howdershelt
    "A government big enough to give you everything you want, is big enough to take away everything you have."- Thomas Jefferson
  16. #156  
    Quote Originally Posted by Lakers0340
    In the '92 Iraq war we had a coaliation. This time we had almost nobody except the most diehard American ally countries. It wasn't just France and Germany opposing it. It was basically the whole world other than britain, and australia.
    Wow. You're really off base with that one. I get so tired of people saying Iraq was a unilateral effort on the part of the U.S. This completely discounts the dozens of nations that played an integral role in the overthrow of the Saddam Hussein regime:

    List of countries lending troops, money to postwar Iraq

    Troops
    Albania - 71 non-combat troops to help with peacekeeping, based in northern Iraq.

    Azerbaijan - 150-man unit to take part in patrols, law enforcement and protection of religious and historic monuments in Iraq.

    Bulgaria - 485-member infantry battalion patrolling Karbala, south of Baghdad. An additional 289 will be sent.

    Central America and the Caribbean - Dominican Republic (with 300 troops), El Salvador (360), Honduras (360) and Nicaragua (120) are assisting a Spanish-led brigade in south-central Iraq.

    Czech Republic - 271 military personnel and three civilians running a field hospital in Basra; 25 military police in Iraq.

    Denmark - 406 troops, consisting of light infantry units, medics and military police. An additional 90 soldiers are being sent.

    Georgia - 69, including 34 special troops, 15 sappers and 20 medics.

    Estonia
    - 55 soldiers, including mine divers and cargo handlers.

    Hungary - 300-member transportation contingent in Iraq.

    Italy - 3,000 troops in southern Iraq.

    Moldova - Dozens of de-mining specialists and medics.

    Netherlands
    - 1,106, including a core of 650 marines, three Chinook transport helicopters, a logistics team, a field hospital, a commando contingent, military police and a unit of 230 military engineers.

    New Zealand - 61 army engineers assigned for reconstruction work in southern Iraq.

    Norway - 156-member force includes engineers and mine clearers.

    Philippines - 177 soldiers, police and medics.

    Poland - 2,400 troops command one of three military sectors in Iraq.

    Portugal - 120 police officers.

    Romania - 800 military personnel, including 405 infantry, 149 de-mining specialists and 100 military police, along with a 56-member special intelligence detachment.

    Slovakia - 82 military engineers.

    South Korea - 675 non-combat troops with more forces on the way.

    Spain - 1,300 troops, mostly assigned to police duties in south-central Iraq.

    Thailand - 400 troops assigned to humanitarian operations.

    Ukraine
    - 1,640 soldiers from a mechanized unit.

    United Kingdom - 7,400, 1,200 more planned.

    Other countries making troop contributions are Kazakhstan (27), Latvia (106), Lithuania (90) Macedonia (28). Details on these deployments were not available.

    The United States is in discussions with 14 other countries about providing troops.

    Economic reconstruction pledges for Iraq made prior to or during the Madrid conference:

    Belgium - US$5-6 million for 2004

    European Union - US$230 million for 2004

    Iran - offered to provide electricity and gas

    Japan - US$1.5 billion the first year and is considering a medium-term package for presentation at Madrid

    Philippines - US$1 million

    South Korea - US$200 million over four years in addition to US$60 million committed this year

    Spain - US$300 million for 2004-07

    Sweden - US$32.7 million for 2004-05

    United Kingdom - US$900 million for three years, including money contributed since April

    World Bank - US$3-5 billion over five years.

    http://www.freerepublic.com/focus/f-news/1006457/posts
  17. #157  
    It was interesting going back in history and refreshing that America has now finally turned over the page on the disastrous Bush years.

    Congratulations America on your new President!
  18.    #158  
    Quote Originally Posted by mjw View Post
    It was interesting going back in history and refreshing that America has now finally turned over the page on the disastrous Bush years.

    Congratulations America on your new President!
    Interesting. And time will tell as to whether or not obama's presidency will be any better or worse than that of bush..

    We will see, indeed.
  19. #159  
    Quote Originally Posted by treobk214 View Post
    Interesting. And time will tell as to whether or not obama's presidency will be any better or worse than that of bush..

    We will see, indeed.
    Lets all hope so, Obama will have a tough job, thats for sure..
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  20.    #160  
    Quote Originally Posted by ToolkiT View Post
    Lets all hope so, Obama will have a tough job, thats for sure..
    Ill tell you what does bother me.... the idea that some democrats are considering seizing 401k plans and nationalizing them. I don't like possibility of increasing capital gains taxes on year over year stock gains either.

    Additionally, not being able to deduct contributions to retirement savings is yet another bad idea.

    These types of changes smack of socialism, and I hope to hell that obama doesn't put them into effect. If he does, god help us..
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