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  1. #101  
    Quote Originally Posted by treobk214
    listen. muslim terrorists want us to die because we are INFIDELS! ok? that's the plain story, alright?
    Sometimes I think it must be nice to live in a world in which everything is simple.

    If Muslim terrorists kill because their victims are infidels, why do Muslim terrorists kill so many Muslims, e.g. in Turkey, in Iraq, in Saudi-Arabia? Why did the Muslim Brotherhood kill Anwar as-Sadat? You may know nothing about him, he was president of Egypt, a Muslim. Are you really sure Osama bin Ladens would hate the US so much without their military presence close to the holy cities of Mekka and Medina? Never heard of that, right? Lucky your president's family and the Saudi royal dictators are such good friends.

    Believe me, I am more than willing to attribute all sorts of bad things to religion, it brings the worst out of people and it obviously makes killing people of a different faith so much easier. But to be fair, I don't think religion alone has ever been the main or only reason for a war anywhere. But these are complex issues, I know.....
    Last edited by clulup; 09/02/2004 at 04:58 PM.
    “Reality is that which, when you stop believing in it, doesn't go away.” (Philip K. ****)
  2. #102  
    Quote Originally Posted by treobk214
    listen. muslim terrorists want us to die because we are INFIDELS! ok? that's the plain story, alright?
    I think you need to read a little more about what is motivating these terrorists. I was amazed by the degree of oversimplification and incorrectness that the majority of the U.S. media applied to explaining why the 9/11 attack occurred. I heard senators being interviewed saying "they attack America because America is pro-freedom and terrorists are against freedom". How ridiculous! And what hope does the U.S. have if the people leading the fight don't even understand what makes the enemy tick?

    If you want to hear some substantial analysis that digs a little deeper than Fox 5 News read this and watch this movie clip
  3. #103  
    Quote Originally Posted by procure
    Alright, go ahead, I'm all ears. Let's hear your suggestions as to what changes in our behavior will rid the world of fanatical Muslim terrorists.
    Quote Originally Posted by Woof
    I too am waiting to hear what change will make us loved the world over. Please share this wisdom with us.
    So I've thinking about this quite a bit after reading your posts. My initial reaction to your writing is that you both sound very disengenuous. I don't think procure really is "all ears," and phrases like "rid the world of fanatical Muslim terrorists," "make us loved the world over," and "please share this wisdom with us" strike me a very sarcastic.

    On the other hand, after reflecting on this for a while, I realize that I, too, am being disengenuous. The United States is changing its behavior. In fact, the behavior of our country changes fairly often (look at Prohibition, as an example). I do not care for the way in which our country's behavior is changing right now, though, so what I should really say is "We probably need to change our behavior in some particular way." I'm not, however, really sure exactly how it should change. I do not believe that the way our current leaders are changing the behavior of our country will resolve the problems we currently face and so, unlike treobk214, I will not be voting for them in the upcoming election. We still get to make these kinds of choices here, because that's how our country behaves.

    I understand that Woof, procure and others believe very strongly in the current behavior of our country. It might be interesting, as an exercise, for you all to try to imagine things we could do to improve our relationship with the rest of the world that are dissimilar from our current actions. I'm not suggesting that we have all our soldiers drop their guns and start giving backrubs, or anything, we can certainly carry on doing that. What else can we do? There must be other ways we can work to improve the situation, right?

    One suggestion, to start things off (and this is an obvious one), would be trying to further our understanding of these people with whom we are in conflict. In many ways this is already happening (the CIA, for instance, has been running ads to try to hire Americans who speak Arabic), but possibly we could do more. It would certainly be a place to start, yes?

    It is also worth pointing out that I'm categorically discarding the position that if we change our behavior because of the actions of terrorists, then the terrorists have won. We have changed our behavior. Our airports have changed dramatically over the last few years, for instance. There is nothing wrong with this. It is sad, yes, but it does not make us weaker. Things happen, we change. We might have to goto war, we might have to remove our shoes before getting on airplanes. This does not mean the terrorists win, it means we are continuing to strive to beat them.

    So what else can we do, besides what we are doing now? (I apologize that this becomes less a question based on what McCain had to say, which was the topic of the thread, and more a question of what any leader of our country could be pursuing.)
  4. #104  
    listen. muslim terrorists want us to die because we are INFIDELS! ok? that's the plain story, alright?


    Are you familiar with any of the history of the US' intervention in the Middle East? I don't mean to sound condescending, but your manner of thinking is far too polarized if you wish to make any sort of judgement regarding the muslim world's hatred of the US.

    Do events like Operation Ajax (the 1953 CIA-led coup against the popular prime minister of Iran, Mossadeq) and the Iran-Contra scandal ring a bell? Furthermore, the US supported (still does? I'm not sure) the fundamentalist Wahabi regime in Saudi Arabia; with acts such as the CIA supported deposition of a democratically elected leader such as Allende in Chile, and subsequent replacement with Pinochet, only serves to promote the belief that the US is simply exploiting these countries! Bin Laden and others can easily draw their own conclusions from this.

    It's really unbelievable to imagine that US administrations have been so short-sighted.
    Last edited by Sherv; 09/02/2004 at 10:18 PM. Reason: stupid grammatical errors
  5. #105  
    Quote Originally Posted by treobk214
    I think john mcCain has illustrated every reason I am voting for g. w. bush this election. eloquent and direct, if this vet chooses to back bush, this must tell you something. a man of character and independence of thought, he chose bush over kerry, and explained the reason why we must continue to fight the war. he should know. he was in harm's way himself, for a much longer period of time than kerry was, and in a much harsher fashion. if he choses bush, there must be a damn good reason, and I think he explained that reason beautifully at the convention
    esp. the reference to a disingeniuous filmmaker who would have us believe that saddam's iraq was an oasis of peace rather than a place of mass graves, torture chambers etc.
    that reaction to this line was absolutely beautiful. viva mccain!!!
    I come to a site about the treo and what do I get? Some redneck touting politics...ANY politics......If you who are for Bushie, I suggest you do some reading rather than replying. I have no idea why but you Republicans try, in any forum, to unload your drivel as if most of us don't read or study political issues or try to quote some Bible passage as if that is your answer. What Kerry did 35 years ago in a war is of no interest to me nor the fact that Bush was to chicken to even show up for his national guard duty holds any value either.
    What odes hold value however, is that I was MUCH BETTER OFF 4 years ago than I am now, that my country was not hated around the world as it is now, and that we are the most militaristic nation on earth (EVER) and yet we still have to spend more and more and more on defense. Why? Well Georgie's dad and the Saudi's (you remember them don't you, THEY were the ones who participated in 9/11 NOT Iraq) and in bed together in munitions industries.
    The is a forum about the Treo, not about some republican that was defeated in his run for President with the same dirty tricks that he is now using against Kerry..I'm not a democrat, but I'm surely not stupid enough to vote for Bush either and to being this up in a forum about the Treo...is just stupid
  6. #106  
    Quote Originally Posted by cmeskii
    I come to a site about the treo and what do I get? Some redneck touting politics...ANY politics......If you who are for Bushie, I suggest you do some reading rather than replying. I have no idea why but you Republicans try, in any forum, to unload your drivel as if most of us don't read or study political issues or try to quote some Bible passage as if that is your answer. What Kerry did 35 years ago in a war is of no interest to me nor the fact that Bush was to chicken to even show up for his national guard duty holds any value either.
    What odes hold value however, is that I was MUCH BETTER OFF 4 years ago than I am now, that my country was not hated around the world as it is now, and that we are the most militaristic nation on earth (EVER) and yet we still have to spend more and more and more on defense. Why? Well Georgie's dad and the Saudi's (you remember them don't you, THEY were the ones who participated in 9/11 NOT Iraq) and in bed together in munitions industries.
    The is a forum about the Treo, not about some republican that was defeated in his run for President with the same dirty tricks that he is now using against Kerry..I'm not a democrat, but I'm surely not stupid enough to vote for Bush either and to being this up in a forum about the Treo...is just stupid

    Well welcome to the forum. It might be good to note that this is the Off Topic section where we talk about just about anything. Are you going to go to the word association thread and complain there too? Or maybe the Aflac duck thread? Neither of those has anything to do with the treo so to be fair you should spread your message there too.

    I think though you are just here as another Bush basher. Welcome anyway. And thanks for calling all of us that are Bush supporters stupid. You might want to go to the forum FAQ and read the section about personal attacks.

    Your statement about Saudi's involved in 9/11 is cute. You make it sound like all of the terrorists were Saudi's and they had the country behind them. Hardly.Atta was Egyptian I think.

    I look forward to your next contribution.
    “There are four boxes to be used in defense of liberty: soap, ballot, jury, and ammo. Please use in that order.”
    — Ed Howdershelt
    "A government big enough to give you everything you want, is big enough to take away everything you have."- Thomas Jefferson
  7. #107  
    mjw, thanks for the thoughtful response. I appreciate you taking the time to explore those issues.
    Palm V-->Visor Deluxe-->Visor Prism-->Visorphone-->Treo 180-->Treo 600-->Treo 650 on Sprint-->Treo 700p-->Centro-->Diamond-->Pre-->HTC EVO 4g???!
  8. #108  
    Quote Originally Posted by cmeskii
    I come to a site about the treo and what do I get? Some redneck touting politics...ANY politics......If you who are for Bushie, I suggest you do some reading rather than replying. I have no idea why but you Republicans try, in any forum, to unload your drivel as if most of us don't read or study political issues or try to quote some Bible passage as if that is your answer. What Kerry did 35 years ago in a war is of no interest to me nor the fact that Bush was to chicken to even show up for his national guard duty holds any value either.
    What odes hold value however, is that I was MUCH BETTER OFF 4 years ago than I am now, that my country was not hated around the world as it is now, and that we are the most militaristic nation on earth (EVER) and yet we still have to spend more and more and more on defense. Why? Well Georgie's dad and the Saudi's (you remember them don't you, THEY were the ones who participated in 9/11 NOT Iraq) and in bed together in munitions industries.
    The is a forum about the Treo, not about some republican that was defeated in his run for President with the same dirty tricks that he is now using against Kerry..I'm not a democrat, but I'm surely not stupid enough to vote for Bush either and to being this up in a forum about the Treo...is just stupid
    Gee, thanks for sharing.
    Palm V-->Visor Deluxe-->Visor Prism-->Visorphone-->Treo 180-->Treo 600-->Treo 650 on Sprint-->Treo 700p-->Centro-->Diamond-->Pre-->HTC EVO 4g???!
  9.    #109  
    cmeskii. you certainly sound like an interesting character ( sarcastic) redneck, you say? you make me laugh. are things so one-dimensional for you that all you stir about is the treo, no other variety of interest?
    now that sounds redneck to me, partner! let me tell ya. here's a brilliant solution for ya. listening?
    there are several other categories in this forum. yeah. you know, communications, treo 650, general chat,,, etc .. you know the drill. here it is. if you don't care to read about politics, than don't goto to the off topic section! there it is! you don't have to read these posts... stick with your treo stuff if that's all you want to read about all day. make sense? yeeehawww I think I just solved your problem for ya!
  10.    #110  
    clulup, once again you outdo yourself with your pretensions and smug tones.
    do you believe you are the only one privy to this information? I really have to laugh at this self-satisfied attitude.
    make your points... lose the attitude. how bout that? if ya do this, ya might. just might ... be successful getting your point of view across. but with the air of pretension, you fail to convince. but you may know nothing about this type of tact when in discourse with others..... its ....a fairly complex thing.
  11. #111  
    Quote Originally Posted by treobk214
    clulup, once again you outdo yourself with your pretensions and smug tones.
    do you believe you are the only one privy to this information? I really have to laugh at this self-satisfied attitude.
    make your points... lose the attitude. how bout that? if ya do this, ya might. just might ... be successful getting your point of view across. but with the air of pretension, you fail to convince. but you may know nothing about this type of tact when in discourse with others..... its ....a fairly complex thing.
    I'll do my best in the future. But still, I can't help the feeling that you again attack the messenger because you don't like the message. There were quite a few valid and (in my view) interesting questions in my post, challenging your opinion, but you have answered none of them.
    “Reality is that which, when you stop believing in it, doesn't go away.” (Philip K. ****)
  12. #112  
    Quote Originally Posted by clulup
    I'll do my best in the future. But still, I can't help the feeling that you again attack the messenger because you don't like the message. There were quite a few valid and (in my view) interesting questions in my post, challenging your opinion, but you have answered none of them.
    I, too, am waiting for a response to my posts.
  13. #113  
    Quote Originally Posted by heberman
    Gee, thanks for sharing.

    Hey heberman...just remember, sharing is caring. Cya in Word Association
    Last edited by clairegrrl; 09/03/2004 at 09:31 AM.
    Well behaved women rarely make history
  14. #114  
    I find it amazing that John Edwards, one of the country's great trial attorneys, who has lined his pockets with insurance premium increases on the working class of most of America, is going to tell us how to reduce health care costs.

    According to Jeffrey E. Garten, dean of Yale School of Management, exorbitant litigation costs are part of the changes that need to be made to drive down prices.

    I guess I have a problem with one of the best "ambulance chasers" in America advancing theories on how to reduce costs.
    Well behaved women rarely make history
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    #115  
    Quote Originally Posted by Tribalenvy
    Why do you make assumptions on behalf of Metsfan. Did he say he thought we should shoot down every plane in the air? Your arguements go to an absolute other extreme, one that Metsfan has not at all expressed. he has expressed his opinion with whys...trying reading them instead of reading into them (and adding bizarre conjecture to boot.)
    He suggested shooting down other hijacked planes after the first tower was hit. First, how do you know it was terrorism and not an accident after one crash? Two, if you think it's terrorism, how do you know which planes to shoot down? In hindsight it's easy to say we should have done this or that, but at the moment these decisions are not so simple.
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    #116  
    Quote Originally Posted by mjw
    I think you need to read a little more about what is motivating these terrorists. I was amazed by the degree of oversimplification and incorrectness that the majority of the U.S. media applied to explaining why the 9/11 attack occurred. I heard senators being interviewed saying "they attack America because America is pro-freedom and terrorists are against freedom". How ridiculous! And what hope does the U.S. have if the people leading the fight don't even understand what makes the enemy tick?
    What makes the enemy tick? Zealous belief that killing innocent people in the name of Allah will bring them a multitude of virgins in their next life?
  17. #117  
    Quote Originally Posted by clairegrrl
    I find it amazing that John Edwards, one of the country's great trial attorneys, who has lined his pockets with insurance premium increases on the working class of most of America, is going to tell us how to reduce health care costs.

    According to Jeffrey E. Garten, dean of Yale School of Management, exorbitant litigation costs are part of the changes that need to be made to drive down prices.

    I guess I have a problem with one of the best "ambulance chasers" in America advancing theories on how to reduce costs.
    It sounds like you've really researched Edwards private career as a lawyer. Do you have links to back up your claims that he was one of the best "ambulance chasers" in the country? We know he made money off of insurance companies...representing injured people who also made money off of these same insurance companies. What would you have us do? Stop litigation of these companies? Patients should lose any rights when wrongs are committed against them? Did Edwards ever represent people for free? Do you know? Would that have made it better than?

    Ok, so what about **** Cheney? Did he ever line his pockets? Where were his interests? Could it be said that it's amazing he would ever want peace when he's lined his pockets in the interest of war? War is no longer good for the economy either...nor condusive to living. It may sometimes be necessary though.

    How can you attack one side without seeing the other? Edwards company is not now being investigated, and who do you think made more?

    I knew of someone who had a great case against an insurance company. They kept putting off his treatment and offering up lesser treatment when his condition was known. An attorney told him he had a very good case, but he never sued. He didn't have a chance...because he died. Do you think that should have gone to court, or should we line insurance companies pockets? No, I don't believe in the sue happy system it sometimes seems we have, but I do believe in everyone having a voice (if it isn't valid, let them pay the resulting court costs). I believe in a system of checks and balances.

    ...but what is your alternative?
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    #118  
    Quote Originally Posted by clulup
    If Muslim terrorists kill because their victims are infidels, why do Muslim terrorists kill so many Muslims, e.g. in Turkey, in Iraq, in Saudi-Arabia?
    Because those Muslims are working with or supporting infidels, as opposed to trying to exterminate them. For these terrorists, it's not enough to be Muslim, you have to want to destroy everyone else. You can't negotiate or reason with them. Do you guys actually condone terrorist activity?
  19. #119  
    Quote Originally Posted by procure
    What makes the enemy tick? Zealous belief that killing innocent people in the name of Allah will bring them a multitude of virgins in their next life?

    Honestly, do you think that is their only motivation? Is that your answer?
  20. #120  
    Quote Originally Posted by procure
    He suggested shooting down other hijacked planes after the first tower was hit. First, how do you know it was terrorism and not an accident after one crash? Two, if you think it's terrorism, how do you know which planes to shoot down? In hindsight it's easy to say we should have done this or that, but at the moment these decisions are not so simple.
    He didn't suggest shooting every plane in the sky down, that would be silly if it weren't so sick. I don't know much concerning this, but I do know planes have to file a flight path. If they're off that path, make contact, find out what's going on, and take them down if there is a threat. We don't just shoot planes out of the sky normally, right? We have rules of engagement...policies we follow. Your comment on shooting down all planes was not (i believe) what Metsfan was saying at all. It was going from one extreme to the other. That is what I was commenting on. I do agree these decisions are not so simple.

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