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  1.    #81  
    kerry wasn't president at the time, no. but he is running for the office now. you'd think he'd be primed for events such as that with the presidency in his sights, wouldn't you? and for a man who is running for that commander in chief top spot, he showed no characteristics whatsoever of the type of president who would better bush's handling of the 9/11 the situation in any way, shape or form.
    I vote bush, 2004.
  2. #82  
    Quote Originally Posted by treobk214
    so what would you recommend we do now that russia is being visited by some unfriendly al qaeda-associated terrorists? do you think the russians still disagree with our proactive approach? I would rather take a proactive stance on this war on muslim maniacs vs sitting back quietly and waiting for them to devastate us again.
    Whoa, dude. Russian conflict with muslim maniacs is, in many ways, what created the situation we're facing today. They certainly haven't failed to be proactive about the situation (Russia fought muslim maniacs for 10 years in Afganistan) and they've been continuously attacked by wild-eyed terrorists for many, many years now.

    This is sort of the problem -- a lot of Americans see our leaders taking us down the same road Russia has gone on this topic. I know it doesn't seem like Russia wore the shoes the U.S. is wearing now, but if you go back further you'll find that history seems to be repeating itself. The "hit them even harder" idea doesn't seem all that promising when you see how hard these people have been hit already. Your previous suggestion (if I'm remember correctly and that you did say this -- if not, I apologize) that we simply nuke everyone actually doesn't seem like a huge escalation of the conflict at this point.

    We've got to find a different answer for how to deal with the rest of the world. We probably need to change our behavior as much as we need to resist those who wish us harm. Does that make any sense?

    Quote Originally Posted by treobk214
    I vote bush, 2004.
    We know. You should put this in your sig.
  3. #83  
    I couldn't agree more.

    Quote Originally Posted by snerdy
    Russian conflict with muslim maniacs is, in many ways, what created the situation we're facing today. They certainly haven't failed to be proactive about the situation (Russia fought muslim maniacs for 10 years in Afganistan) and they've been continuously attacked by wild-eyed terrorists for many, many years now.
    It's also interesting to note from history that at that time America saw the Russians in Afganistan as the "invading oppressors" and the muslim Mujahideen as "freedom fighters". At that time America funded and armed the Mujahideen and the CIA trained their leaders (one of those trained by the CIA was Osama Bin Laden).

    Isn't it interesting how perspectives change when the "boot is on the other foot"? Now any people resisting America's invasion are branded as "terrorists" and we are "liberators". Hmm...
  4. #84  
    Quote Originally Posted by mjw
    I love living in the U.S., but I have been amazed by the seemingly blind faith that many Americans seem to place in their leaders and how little the media seems to hold leaders to task.
    Ha ha, that's pretty funny that you think the US media doesn't bash Bush for every inconceivable reason. Where have you been living in again? Mars?

    Actually the majority of people in the U.K. also oppose it as do most people in the world outside the U.S.
    And your statistics come from where? The DNC or the "pro-bush" American media?

    And in the process of attempting to kill, control, or imprison without trial all these potential terrorists, you just create many many more people who hate America enough to become a terrorist. Bush must be the best recruiting tool Al-Queida has ever had at their disposal!
    You know, there are also lots of murders in the US. I guess you think we should just stop trying to stop catching the bad guys, and the problem will go away. Yay! No more crime since we disbanded the police!

    So if you were President, you would:
    1. Stop trying to "kill, control, or imprisoon" the terrorists;
    2. Be really nice to the world and maybe people will like us better.

    Thank goodness you aren't President.
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  5. #85  
    Quote Originally Posted by mjw
    It's also interesting to note from history that at that time America saw the Russians in Afganistan as the "invading oppressors" and the muslim Mujahideen as "freedom fighters". At that time America funded and armed the Mujahideen and the CIA trained their leaders (one of those trained by the CIA was Osama Bin Laden).

    Isn't it interesting how perspectives change when the "boot is on the other foot"? Now any people resisting America's invasion are branded as "terrorists" and we are "liberators". Hmm...
    There are two huge differences. First, when the US was funding anti-soviets in Afganistan, the US was fighting against the encroachment of communism throuout the world, including Afganistan. And that was bad, how, mjw? The US, along with other free nations, helped defeat a great evil in the world.

    Second, the majority of Iraqis support our scourging of Saddam and his henchman. It is only the terrorists who see the US as "invaders".
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  6. #86  
    treobk214 is exactly right. The terrorists want to kill us all, no matter what we do. Here are a few choice quotes from Osama:

    "Hostility toward America is a religious duty, and we hope to be rewarded for it by God . . . . I am confident that Muslims will be able to end the legend of the so-called superpower that is America. Time Magazine

    "The pieces of the bodies of infidels were flying like dust particles. If you would have seen it with your own eyes, you would have been very pleased, and your heart would have been filled with joy." -- At the wedding of his son in southern Kandahar about the 17 sailors who died suicide bombing of the USS Cole off the coast of Yemen

    "Every American man is an enemy to us." -- Independent.

    " . . . It is far better for anyone to kill a single American soldier than to squander his efforts on other activities." -- May 1998

    "We--with God's help--call on every Muslim who believes in God and wishes to be rewarded to comply with God's order to kill the Americans and plunder their money wherever and whenever they find it. We also call on Muslim ulema, leaders, youths, and soldiers to launch the raid on Satan's U.S. troops and the devil's supporters allying with them, and to displace those who are behind them so that they may learn a lesson." Feb. 1998 - Bin Laden edict

    ``We are seeking to incite the (Islamic) nation to rise up to liberate its land and to (conduct) jihad (holy war) for the sake of God." -- al-Jazeera, June 1999.

    "I'm fighting so I can die a martyr and go to heaven to meet God. Our fight now is against the Americans." -- Osama bin Laden, quoted by Al-Quds Al-Arabi newspaper

    "We declared jihad against the US government, because the US government is unjust, criminal and tyrannical. It has committed acts that are extremely unjust, hideous and criminal whether directly or through its support of the Israeli occupation." - Osama bin Laden - to CNN in March 1997

    " . . . For the American forces to expect anything from me personally reflects a very narrow perception. Thousands of millions of Muslims are angry. The Americans should expect reactions from the Muslim world that are proportionate to the injustice they inflict." to Time Magazine Dec 1998

    Responding to the question "are you trying to acquire chemical and nuclear weapons?"

    "Acquiring weapons for the defense of Muslims is a religious duty. If I have indeed acquired these weapons, then I thank God for enabling me to do so. And if I seek to acquire these weapons, I am carrying out a duty. It would be a sin for Muslims not to try to possess the weapons that would prevent the infidels from inflicting harm on Muslims." Time Magazine Dec 1998
    Note how most of the statements take place BEFORE that evil guy Bush ever took office? They wanted to kill us BEFORE that big meanie Bush made the whole world to hate us?

    What most liberals don't understand is that there are truly bad guys in the world who want to kill you! No matter how nice and gracious you want to be to them, they will still cut your heads off! They are barbarians, and trying to act "sensitive" towards the terrorists won't make them not be the monsters they are.
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  7. #87  
    Quote Originally Posted by PeterBrown
    I think it's amazing how Sept 11 changed Americans perceptions of terrorism. How many of you knew or cared that Americans were funding the IRA via Noraid?
    I didn't know this at all. Link please?
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    #88  
    Quote Originally Posted by metsfan
    Seeing as the second tower was hit only 18 minutes after the first, I would say a lot could be done in 7 minutes. Like the executive order that would have been needed to shoot the plane down. It's possible that 5 minutes wouldn't be enough time to get fighters up to do it, but 10 would have (I don't know about these times, but they seem plausible). I'm not saying this information was available to him, but it certainly could have been, had he acted earlier (and everyone at the FAA did their job, which may or may not have been true.)
    So after the first plane hit the tower, instead of waiting a few minutes, you would've immediately sent fighters up to shoot down every other plane currently in the air? Or just the ones that your psychic powers told you had been hijacked? Get real - the seven minute wait had absolutely no effect.
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    #89  
    Quote Originally Posted by snerdy
    We've got to find a different answer for how to deal with the rest of the world. We probably need to change our behavior as much as we need to resist those who wish us harm. Does that make any sense?
    Alright, go ahead, I'm all ears. Let's hear your suggestions as to what changes in our behavior will rid the world of fanatical Muslim terrorists.
  10. #90  
    I too am waiting to hear what change will make us loved the world over. Please share this wisdom with us.
    “There are four boxes to be used in defense of liberty: soap, ballot, jury, and ammo. Please use in that order.”
    — Ed Howdershelt
    "A government big enough to give you everything you want, is big enough to take away everything you have."- Thomas Jefferson
  11. #91  
    Quote Originally Posted by procure
    So after the first plane hit the tower, instead of waiting a few minutes, you would've immediately sent fighters up to shoot down every other plane currently in the air? Or just the ones that your psychic powers told you had been hijacked? Get real - the seven minute wait had absolutely no effect.

    Why do you make assumptions on behalf of Metsfan. Did he say he thought we should shoot down every plane in the air? Your arguements go to an absolute other extreme, one that Metsfan has not at all expressed. he has expressed his opinion with whys...trying reading them instead of reading into them (and adding bizarre conjecture to boot.)
  12. #92  
    Quote Originally Posted by Woof
    I too am waiting to hear what change will make us loved the world over. Please share this wisdom with us.
    Who said anything about being loved the world over, Woof? See also previous post.
  13. #93  
    Quote Originally Posted by Tribalenvy
    Who said anything about being loved the world over, Woof? See also previous post.
    Uh opposite of hate is love. We're hated by muslims the world over. Changing that would make us loved or at least liked. Is accepted a better word for you?

    Why not answer the question instead of attacking the delivery? My guess is because you dont have the answer.
    “There are four boxes to be used in defense of liberty: soap, ballot, jury, and ammo. Please use in that order.”
    — Ed Howdershelt
    "A government big enough to give you everything you want, is big enough to take away everything you have."- Thomas Jefferson
  14. #94  
    Quote Originally Posted by Woof
    I too am waiting to hear what change will make us loved the world over. Please share this wisdom with us.
    Simple: better foreign policy

    As an Iranian, I can easily spout off countless examples of US intervention that has upset the people and helped rally them with anti-US sentiments.
  15. #95  
    Quote Originally Posted by heberman
    Ha ha, that's pretty funny that you think the US media doesn't bash Bush for every inconceivable reason.
    Actually what I was referring to was how easily and unquestioningly people seem to have been led like sheep towards the war in Iraq with a constantly changing rationale moving from (in time sequence):
    1) Saddam was responsible for 9/11 therefore let's invade Iraq (70% of Americans still believe this rationale)
    2) Saddam had associations with Al Queida who caused 9/11 (also widely discounted by various sources)
    3) Forget about 9/11, Iraq is a threat to the U.S. because of it's WMD's
    4) Forget about WMD's it's worth invading Iraq because Saddam is an evil dictator

    As each of 1 through 3 were proved false, Bush just moved onto a new rationale and very few people even questioned how we had lost sight of the original objective - to prevent Al Queida launching another attack on the U.S..

    Quote Originally Posted by heberman
    And your statistics come from where? The DNC or the "pro-bush" American media?
    Here are some examples from the world that exists outside America:
    1) Third of Britons Consider Bush More Dangerous Than Saddam
    2) The Biggest Threat To Peace
    3) What country is the greatest threat to peace
    4) Why do Europeans attack President Bush's line on war with Iraq?

    Quote Originally Posted by heberman
    You know, there are also lots of murders in the US. I guess you think we should just stop trying to stop catching the bad guys, and the problem will go away. Yay! No more crime since we disbanded the police!
    What I am challenging is the probability of success of Bush's strategy. Of course disbanding the police would not result in a decrease in crime. But if your goal is to prevent another terrorist attack on the U.S. then there are much better strategies to pursue than invading a country like Iraq that we have no evidence has ever been involved in such an attack. Do you really believe that Bush can eliminate world terrorism by attacking muslim countries with increased vigor (meanwhile diverting resources from capturing the real culprit, Bin Laden)?

    How many Iraqi's currently involved in guerrilla warfare with the coalition forces do you think were actively plotting an attack against the U.S. prior to the invasion of Iraq compared to the number plotting attacks now? I think it has increased and this leads me to believe that Bush's strategy has increased the danger that Americans now face not reduced it.

    Perhaps taking a leaf out of the lessons learnt from Northern Ireland would have been better at increasing our chances of success. For example, Bush could have made a serious attempt to pursue:
    - A united front between all the countries involved (United Nations, Arab League, Israel, Palestine, Afghanistan)
    - Commitment to a peaceful political process (between Israelis and Palestinians)
    - Economic prosperity for people (in Afghanistan)

    Bush took completely the opposite route and continues to do so.
    Last edited by mjw; 09/02/2004 at 03:27 PM.
  16. #96  
    Quote Originally Posted by heberman
    I didn't know this at all. Link please?
    Search for Noraid in here:
    http://www.ecademy.com/node.php?id=14327
    http://www.xmission.com/pub/lists/roc/archive/v02.n468
    http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/talking_point/1574711.stm
  17. #97  
    Awesome post, mjw!
  18. #98  
    Quote Originally Posted by procure
    So after the first plane hit the tower, instead of waiting a few minutes, you would've immediately sent fighters up to shoot down every other plane currently in the air? Or just the ones that your psychic powers told you had been hijacked? Get real - the seven minute wait had absolutely no effect.
    Actually, planes should have been up in the air and escorting the hijacked plane as soon as it was known that a plane was hijacked. The president need not be involved in that decision, and as I said before, the fact that they weren't wasn't his fault.

    If they had been, however, seven minutes could have made all the difference. I don't think anything could reasonably have been done about the first hit, because by the time they realized what was happening it would have been too late. But after that, if planes had already been on the other hijacked 767s, those seven minutes would have been useful.

    Again, I'm not saying Kerry would have done any better, but the right response when something like this happens is to stop what you're doing and get focused on it. Lots of people failed here, including Bush.
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  19.    #99  
    yo, professor snerdy! what do you believe is the cause behind maniac muslims? do you honestly believe its due to the russians? DUDE!
    listen. muslim terrorists want us to die because we are INFIDELS! ok? that's the plain story, alright?
    do you recommend we sit down and have a fireside chat with these folks and after a good long arm around the shoulder talk, politely listen to their problems say we are sorry and then turn our backs to them?
    are you serious, dude? sweet mother of god, snerdy. and you know what, looking at what the competiton's arguments are here, yes Id proudly tout that on my signature, good buddy! give me a good reason to vote kerry, ok? how's that?
  20.    #100  
    back we go with the iraq attack.
    look, america was attacked. we initiated an immediate investigation of all possible sources of these terrorists - who may be funding them as well as as safehousinf them.
    afghanistan was first. iraq followed due to suspicions - which ALL intelligence agencies shared I might add, folks, that there were chemical, biological wmds. hussein had been thumbing his nose at the un for years up until now as well.
    so we went in with inspectors. NOW LISTEN IN. this is where it gets interesting. we went in according to rules laid out by the un. inspection begins.
    however, for some odd reason, folks, saddam, the peaceful genius that he truly was, opted to stiffly refuse access to certain sites within his country. now when you gas your own people, you probably should expect the kind of investigation that was taking place there, no?
    he continually refused to fully cooperate, dissrespecting nearly all un resolutions throughout this process.
    now let's think about this. if a superpower was just attacked, and you know full well they are on the warpath with terrorists, would it not have been wise of poor ole saddam to recognize this and say, ok I don't like the us, but I realize I have to prove that there are no wmds to save my country. so I will open all doors so they can come in, take a look and be outta my hair as fast as possible.
    wouldn't that have made more sense? well the wise ole saddam instead continued behaving like a thug - the type of behavior you would expect from someone who is HIDING something. and when a superpower gets attacked and is witnessing behavior like this.... WHAT DO YOU THINK WAS GOING TO HAPPEN?!
    Hussein, due to his own stupidity, was the one who encouraged the us in. if he had allowed inspectors access to all sites, there would have been nothing for bush to go on, now would there?
    once again hindsight is 20/20 and people quickly forget what a stunningly amazing diplomat saddam hussein was. i

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